"...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints."- Jude 1:3

Wednesday, December 1, 2021

A Response to Gary the Atheist


A guy named Gary posted some comments in one of my blogs [HERE]. He left a link to his own blog HERE. I responded to him both in my original blog and his. Then he responded back at his blog. The following is my response to his response. You can read his original comments at his blog. When I quote him below, I'll put his comments in blue, in quote text and within two slashes like //this//.

Here's my response to Gary.


I don't have the time to get into a detailed debate. But I'll make some brief comments. First off, while I believe in the use of evidences for Christianity like Christians who employ Evidentialist apologetics and Classical apologetics [etc.], I'm a presuppositionalist. So my epistemology is different than most other Christian apologists. I take the Bible to be self-attesting and self-authenticating. Nevertheless, I believe there are external and internal evidences that support or provide additional confirmatory evidence for the truth of the Bible. So, I don't think the truth of Christianity or its acceptability is ultimately dependent on external evidence. 


I'll start off by responding to your Gish Galloping list of objections. It's easier to list objections than to provide answers by the very fact that objections can be stated more succinctly than answers which require a full explanation to adequately address the objections.



//I left Christianity after evaluating the many inconsistencies and false claims in the Bible, not just because of a couple of books by Bart Ehrman. Some of these inconsistencies and false claims are:


–the lack of archaeological evidence for the Exodus, an event Jesus believed was historical.//


Not all archaeologists are Egyptologists [i.e. specialize in ancient Egypt]. According to archaeologist James Hoffmeier's informal survey, while it's true that most archaeologists reject the historicity of the Exodus, from his finite inductive study, most Egyptologists either believe or suspect that the Exodus occurred. See this link:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170930132901/https://faithfulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/vast-majority-of-egyptologists-believe-the-exodus-happened/


Dr. David A. Falk is an Egyptologist who believe in a literal Exodus. See his website: http://www.egyptandthebible.com/​


Also check out Dr. Falk's YouTube channel where he defends a literal Exodus:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF1f7vTqonOIwaGU6DwTvjg


While Falk thinks there are weaknesses in Titus Kennedy's works, I recommend checking out his book and videos as well. Archaeologist James Hoffmeier's books and videos are a bit dated and have partially be refuted, but they are good introductory resources.


//–the evolving concept of an afterlife in the OT.//


That's not problematic given Jewish or Christian theism. Since there's the Biblical concept of progressive revelation whereby God grants more and more information about spiritual matters down through Redemptive History. It's not one large data dump. That progression is seen even within the the Old Testament. And even within the first five books [i.e. the Torah/Penteteuch]. Also, "evolving" in what way? The Old Testament taught a conscious afterlife in Sheol and hinted at a more blessed condition for the righteous than for the unrighteous. That basic outline is completely consistent and compatible with the New Testament's understanding of the afterlife. While it has some flaws [as Annihilationists point out], I recommend the general arguments presented by Robert Morey in his book "Death and the Afterlife." For example, he points out how Gen. 35:18 says regarding Rachel "And as her soul was departing (for she was dying)." Implying an immaterial aspect to Rachel and its departure. Sure, the Hebrew word "soul" used could sometimes be translated "life," but in this case it could also [more?] plausibly be translated as "soul." Similar to how in 1 Ki 17:21 the "soul" [or "life"] came back INTO the child's body. Or how Jacob said in Gen. 37:35, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Implying Jacob believed in a conscious afterlife in Sheol where he would be reunited with his son Joseph.


While a bit dated, here's a public domain link to Messianic Jewish scholar Alfred Edersheim's Appendix 19 in his famous book, "Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah." He shows how the New Testament didn't invent the Christian afterlife out of thin air, but was partly built upon previous 2nd Temple Jewish beliefs about the afterlife. Beliefs that themselves were built upon from the Old Testament revelation.


Appendix 19, On Eternal Punishment, According to the Rabbis and the New Testament by Edersheim
https://ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes/lifetimes.xi.xviii.html


//–the fact that the NT authors used a Greek translation of the OT when writing their books and claiming fulfilled prophecies, a Greek translation which blatantly distorted the original Hebrew meaning in many passages.//


Since Christianity is a missionary religion, it only made sense to use a widespread Greek translation of the Old Testament that was already popular throughout the Roman Empire. There's nothing wrong with that. Does it blatantly distort the original Hebrew? Much of that claim of non-literal 1. translation, 2. interpretation and 3. application can be answered when one applies the Jewish hermeneutic that would later be called Pardes/PaRDeS that was already in use during the 1st century by 2nd Temple Jews.


See the following resources:


How the New Testament Quotes the Old Testament by Messianic Jew Arnold Fruchtenbaum
http://arielb.org/archives/794


Fruchtenbaum goes into this in his AUDIO lectures series the "Jewish Life of Christ": 
https://www.deanbibleministries.org/bible-class-listing/messages/series/the-jewish-life-of-christ


//Literal Prophecy Plus Literal Fulfillment: Pshat

The first category is known as “literal prophecy plus literal fulfillment,” reflecting the rabbinic pshat, which refers to the simple meaning of the text. The example of this first category is found in Matthew 2:5 6.//


//Literal Plus Typical: Remez

The second category of quotations can be labeled “literal plus typical.” In rabbinic theology it was known are remez or “hint.” An example of this category is found in Matthew 2:15.//


//Literal Plus Application: Drash

The third category is “literal plus application,” correlating with the rabbinic drash. The example of this category is Matthew 2:17 18.//


//Summation: Sod

The fourth category is “summation” or “summary.” The meaning of sod is “secret” or “mystery” or “something unknown.” The example of the fourth category is found in Matthew 2:23.//


Pardes (Jewish exegesis) [wikipedia article]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)


A common objection to the historicity of Jesus is that there are too many parallels to Jesus and the Old Testament. But the parallel aren't as strong as they could be or would be if the Gospel writers were making it all up and fabricating it whole cloth. Another related objection is that passages in the Old Testament are eisegetically [rather than exegetically] pressed and forced to refer to Jesus. But if the Gospel authors were making it up, they would have made the parallels and fulfillments fit better if they used JUST A LITTLE bit more imagination. The fact that the Gospels don't do that fits better with the Gospel authors being constrained by the actual historical facts of Jesus rather than spinning fake tales. See the following video:


Is the Story of Jesus Stolen From the Old Testament?
https://youtu.be/AgHfZaPNddo


Moreover, the fulfillments are often more literal than is usually realized at first glance. See the MANY book recommendations in the 2nd half of the blog linked below that argue for the genuine messiahship of Jesus:

HERE https://misclane.blogspot.com/2021/09/the-prophecies-of-old-testament.html


It's often been said by non-Messianic Jews that no great rabbis believed Jesus was the Messiah. That's factually false. Many great rabbis have. Some of them were even very learned gedolim. See the following articles:


Rabbis Who Thought For Themselves Part ONE
http://www.messianicjudaism.me/yinon/2011/11/02/rabbis-who-thought-for-themselves/


Rabbis Who Thought For Themselves Part TWO
http://www.messianicjudaism.me/yinon/2011/12/01/rabbis-who-thought-for-themselves-part-ii/


//–the alleged OT prophecies about Jesus are all disputed. Jewish Bible scholars can provide good arguments that the passages in question are not talking about Jesus.//


Again, see the links I provided above. Including the MANY book recommendations of I linked to in the blog above.


[32 Youtube Videos]
Michael L. Brown's introductory responses to Jewish Objection to Jesus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7oY5wh5KEc&list=PLOSesbHxQr2Ta7WjFBut_bjLRWwMSYepK&index=2


It's interesting that many Jewish counter-Missionaries don't want to debate Michael L. Brown. For example, rabbi Tovia Singer has been avoiding debating Brown again [a 3rd time] for decades. Here's a video where Brown addresses Singer's refusal to debate him and Singer's inaccurate statements:


Dr. Brown Responds to Rabbi Tovia Singer
https://youtu.be/U5-TJPz6Y94


//–the fact that two and maybe three of the Gospel authors massively plagiarized the first.//


That Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source is not plagiarism. They may have even used the hypothetical Q [and other possible sources]. There's nothing wrong with doing that. Mark provided an outline [or skeleton] that the authors of Matthew and Luke decided to build and expand upon [by adding more "flesh"]. 


//–the inconsistency of the accounts of the location of Jesus’ appearances to his male disciples.//


I'm assuming you're referring to how Matt. 28:10 and Mark 16:7 say Jesus was to meet the disciples in Galilee. While Luke changes that in Luke 24:6, and has the disciples encountering Jesus in Jerusalem [similar to John]. See Mike Licona's book, "Why Are There Differences in the Gospels?" Licona rightly points out that the Gospel authors used literary conventions and literary/compositional devices that were common at the time, were expected to be used and not considered deceptive or lying. I think Licona overuses them in his interpretation of the Gospels, but there is still some truth to it. For example, compression, simplification, transferal, displacement, conflation.


See this video lectures by Licona:

"Why are there differences in the gospels?" - Mike Licona
https://youtu.be/xtemSTrkogE


Also, given the 40 days between Jesus' resurrection and ascension, there would have been plenty of time for Jesus to initially visit some inner (smaller) group of disciples in Jerusalem, and then have a larger meeting in Galilee in the middle of the 40 days for disciples to travel that far to Galilee. Then a final meeting again in Jerusalem. Remember that 40 days is more than a month and a full week. 


//–not one single non-Christian recorded the (alleged) fantastical feats of Jesus. Jesus allegedly performed more and greater miracles than all of the OT prophets combined yet only four Christian authors recorded these events. This is strong evidence these events never happened. They are theological/literary embellishments, a common feature in ancient literature.//


This is easily answered. See for example this EXCELLENT video by InspiringPhilosophy/Michael Jones:


Refuting Biblical Arguments from Silence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwTDuNFAHng&list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TW70EEo4e2onJ4lq1QYSzrY&index=8


In the video above, he gives these examples:

The eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD is one of the biggest and most devastating disasters in the ancient Roman Empire. It would have been seen by about 1/4 million people. Two cities were destroyed in the eruption. The death toll was probably between 16,000 to 60,000 people. Yet there is only surviving reference to the eruption, and it isn't even contemporary. It was written 30 years after. 


There is no Carthaginian or contemporary sources of Hannibal. No sources for Alexander the Great until 350 years later. Marco Polo never mentions the Great Wall of China. President Ulysses S. Grant's diary doesn't mention the Emancipation Proclamation.


Herod Archelaus' slaughtering several Jews in the temple, cancelling Passover celebration. It would have affected hundreds of thousands of people. Yet only Josephus, ONE person, records this event that has survived to the present.


//–the fact that a significant percentage of NT scholars doubt the eyewitness/associate of eyewitness authorship of the Gospels//


Even assuming that none of the Gospels were written by an eyewitness, eyewitness testimony isn't the only POSSIBLE source of reliable history. That's a non-sequitur. According to your blog, you're aware of books like “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses” by Richard Bauckham. So, you know that there are books that argue for the general reliability of the Gospels by various authors. I'm sure you're aware of Craig Keener's books on the topic. Mike Licona says that Bart Ehrman was once called a "workaholic" and Bart responded, "Workaholic? No, Craig Keener, HE'S a workaholic!". Licona said that here: https://youtu.be/_eCe4GyNlr0?t=424


Moreover, besides the Gospels, there's Paul writings from which we can glean historical nuggets regarding the early Christians' beliefs and practices. The author of Luke/Acts has been shown to be a first rate historian. See the McGrews on this topic.


See these resources:


The Historical Jesus DID Exist - Bart Ehrman
https://youtu.be/43mDuIN5-ww


The Reliability of the New Testament (External Evidence)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdCRanZZyw&list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TW70EEo4e2onJ4lq1QYSzrY&index=5


Extrabiblical Evidence for the Veracity of the Gospel History by Jonathan McLatchie
https://jonathanmclatchie.com/extrabiblical-evidence-for-the-veracity-of-the-gospel-history/


See many of Tim McGrew's YouTube videos on the historical reliability of the Gospels. 

For example here: https://youtu.be/04ZV8bVQhWg


//–Eyewitness accounts of people seeing a walking/talking resurrected Jesus is the best evidence Christians have for the central claim of their holy book—the resurrection of Jesus—but these alleged eyewitness accounts are disputed. Disputed eyewitness accounts for an event which allegedly happened 20 centuries ago is NOT good evidence.//


That begs the question [petitio principii/circular reasoning] that the Bible isn't self-attesting and self-authenticating and that there is no sensus divinitatis and the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit to the truths of the Gospel. I deny that non-Christians can make any sense of knowledge given their consistent use of their non-Christian worldviews and presuppositions. For example, let's deal with atheistic worldviews. Not all atheists are materialists, but many/most are. Because of that, they have a hard time, if not are unable to account for things like the famous and enduring epistemological and metaphysical problems of induction; cannot overcome the problem of Eliminative Materialism and of Mereological Nihilism; cannot overcome the Hard Problem of consciousness; or even rationally assert atheism given the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism [the famous EAAN]. I could go on. Those are just some of the philosophical problems in atheism. While Christianity as a worldview can provide for the preconditions of intelligibility in a consistent way. It has greater explanatory scope, explanatory power etc.


Eliminative Materialism, for example, holds that human consciousness, thoughts, desires, beliefs, feelings, deliberations, decisions, intentionality, ratiocinations and acts of will aren't real. Mereological Nihilism states there are no parts that make up wholes. In which case, there are no human beings made up of cells. There are only subatomic particles. I'll limit my objections to these. I don't want to Gish Gallop too much, myself.


Moreover, the miracle claims didn't stop at the 1st century. See the following books for starters:


Read Craig Keener's two volume Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts [2011]


Craig Keener's "Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World" [2021] which has 70% more information than the previous book.


Rex Gardner's Healing Miracles: A Doctor Investigates, 


and the appendices in Robert Larmer's The Legitimacy of Miracle 


as well as Larmer's book Dialogues on Miracle


See also Christian philosopher J.P. Moreland's book on modern miracles, "A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles: Instruction and Inspiration for Living Supernaturally in Christ."


Then there are scientific books that support a cosmic designer. For example:


Stephen C. Meyer's EXCELLENT BOOKS 1. Signature in the Cell; 2. Darwin's Doubt; 3. The Return of the God Hypothesis [newly released]


The Privileged Planet by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards [some channels have the video version]


Undeniable: How Biology Confirms Our Intuition That Life Is Designed by Douglas Axe


Agnostic Michael Denton's various EXCELLENT books like:

Evolution: Still a Theory in Crisis (2016) [a second sequel to his 1985 Evolution: A Theory in Crisis]

Nature’s Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe [first sequel]

The Miracles of the Cell

Children of Light: The Astonishing Properties of Sunlight That Make Us Possible

The Wonder of Water: Water's Profound Fitness for Life on Earth and Mankind

Fire-Maker: How Humans Were Designed to Harness Fire and Transform Our Planet 


Various books by Fazale Rana on biology like 1. The Cell's Design; 2. Origins of Life; 

Various books by Hugh Ross on scientific evidences for a Creator. Though, the way he argues for things are a bit off and poorly reasoned. But the data points are very suggestive. For example:

Improbable Planet: How Earth Became Humanity's Home by Hugh Ross

Why the Universe Is the Way It Is by Hugh Ross


Who Was Adam? by Rana and Ross [revised and updated edition]


The Genealogical Adam and Eve: The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry by S. Joshua Swamidass


Check out atheist philosophers' books about the ramifications of atheism like atheist philosopher's book Thomas Nagel's "Mind & Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False"


And atheist philosopher's book Alex Rosenberg's The Atheist's Guide to Reality.


Also, James N. Anderson's book review of Rosenberg's book here:
https://www.proginosko.com/2013/08/the-atheists-guide-to-reality/



//How does anyone know what Jesus said at his trial before the Sanhedrin? The Gospel authors do not indicate that his disciples were present. So who recorded this event? Who carefully dictated Jesus’ choice of words and passed it on to the anonymous author of Mark?? //


The book of Acts states that many Jews converted to Christianity after Christ's resurrection. Why assume that none of the converts were among the Sanhedrin? Why assume that Jesus' words in the Gospels need to always be ipsissima verba [precise/the very words] and not sometimes ipsissima vox [very voice]? Jesus didn't always talk/preach in Greek, so we can't always have the very words of Jesus.


Did Jesus Speak Multiple Languages? See my blogpost here:
https://quotesandreferences.blogspot.com/2018/03/did-jesus-speak-multiple-languages.html


//This brings up another important issue which contributed to my decision to abandon Christianity: Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions! //


We all have assumptions and presuppositions. We all have a worldview by which we interpret the world. We're all presuppositionalists. Some just don't know it and aren't consistent with it and their worldview. The question is which worldview does better/best at providing for the preconditions of intelligibility and human experience in a way that's internally consistent and coherent. For my own self, I've found Christianity to do it MUCH MUCH MUCH better than any other worldview I've encountered. Including various atheistic worldviews.


For example, many atheists believe in science to the point of [unknowingly] holding to scientism. Some [not all] atheists for example, claim that you can only know things through the methods of science. But that claim is not itself something that you can know through the methods of science. It's self-refuting like the statement, "There are no sentences longer than three words."


Science has presuppositions or axioms which cannot themselves be proven scientifically but must be assumed [almost like "faith"] in order for science to be done [i.e. to even begin]. Some of those presuppositions include:


Here is a list of some of the presuppositions of science: 

(1) the existence of a theory-independent, external world; 

(2) the orderly nature of the external world; 

(3) the knowability of the external world; 

(4) the existence of truth; 

(5) the laws of logic; 

(6) the [general] reliability of our cognitive and sensory faculties to serve as truth gatherers/identifiers and as a source of justified true beliefs in our intellectual environment; 

(7) the adequacy of language to describe the world; 

( 8 ) the existence of values used in science (e.g., "test theories fairly and report test results honestly"); 

(9) the [presumed] uniformity of nature and [propriety of the use of the principle of] induction; 

(10) causation

(11) the existence (or at least usefulness) of numbers. Given atheism, it's a strange "Happy Coincidence" that nature is so very much structured on mathematics that physicists can make predictions about the universe which are later confirmed empirically. Whereas, given the existence of God it makes perfect sense that God would create the physical world mathematically, and intellectually/rationally accessible.


These assumptions and the subscription to them make sense in [Christian] theism, but the various atheistic worldviews have difficulty [metaphysically] grounding such axioms or [epistemologically] justifying belief in them. Most atheists live by "faith" (so to speak) when they operate with these working/operating assumptions.


//Christian assume that the conversation between Jesus and the high priest is historical but it is entirely possible that it is a theological invention of the author.//


No, Christians don't necessarily have to merely assume that. There are historical arguments that can be mustered to support some of the events in the New Testament even given the unjustified historical methods of some non-Christian worldviews. Moreover, your hypothetical statement can be reversed. "[B]ut it is entirely possible that... [the account is generally reliable historically]". Possibilities doesn't prove probabilities. Note that many atheists scholars, Jewish scholars and liberal "Christian" scholars grant key aspects of the Gospel story given their use of historical procedures.


Notice these quotes:


"One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on order of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate."- Bart Ehrman [agnostic scholar]


"Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable..." - Gerd Lüdemann [Atheist scholar]


Non-Messianic Jewish scholar Pinchas Lapide said Jesus' death by crucifixion is "historically certain". Moreover, based on the historical evidence, Lapide even believed that Jesus really did rise from the death by God's power, but didn't believe he was the Messiah for the Jews, but for the Gentiles.


"The single most solid fact about Jesus' life is his death: he was executed by the Roman prefect Pilate, on or around Passover, in the manner Rome reserved particularly for Roman insurrectionists, namely, crucifixion." - Paula Fredriksen [a scholar converted to Judaism, who specializes in historical Jesus studies]


"The most certain fact about the historical Jesus is his execution as a political rebel."- Marcus Borg [Liberal scholar]


The crucifixion of Jesus is recognized even by the Jesus Seminar as "one indisputable fact." [Robert Funk, Jesus Seminar videotape]


I recommend again that you watch William Lane Craig's explanation of the historical "Criteria of Authenticity" lecture and how he demonstrates Bart Ehrman often misunderstand, misapplies and conflates some of those criteria.


William Lane Craig Describing Various Criteria of Authenticity and How Bart Ehrman Incorrectly Defines and Applies Them:
IN SIX SHORT VIDEOS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANl-OcPnfI&list=PLshImU6jwhvz77QRcIo1HkBnZLIW0pMT1


//And your interpretation that Jesus used the Greek words for “I am” is preposterous. Do you really believe that Jesus and the high priest were speaking to each other in Greek? Highly unlikely. //


Two of Jesus' Apostles had Greek names [Andrew and Philip]. Matthew was a tax collector for the Romans and who certainly knew Greek. Four were fishermen who sold fish [one of whom was Andrew]. The name Philip became a popular Greek name because of Philip II of Macedon the father of Alexander the Great. Is it unlikely that the Apostles and Jesus would have known how to speak Koine Greek? Jesus was a PREACHER. Jesus HAND PICKED His Apostles to preach. The word "apostle" itself means "SENT [one]." Sent to do what? Preach. Doesn't it seem reasonable that Jesus would choose people who were also Greek speakers? We call it "Koine" Greek because it was "common." It was the "lingua franca" of the time, like English is the universal language of commerce in our own day and age. As a possible carpenter, is it difficult to think Jesus spoke Koine? 


You'll ask, "How about at His trial?" It's common in multi-lingual cultures and societies for people to move back and fourth in different languages. Even to mix them a bit. That's why, for example, people jokingly talk about "Spanglish" [a mix of Spanish and English]. I'm Filipino and we jokingly talk about "Taglish" [Tagalog and English]. So, is it unlikely that Jesus didn't switch from Aramaic and/or Hebrew to Greek and back again? I doubt it. 


You'll ask, "How about Jesus' statement in Mark 14:62?" Let's say for the sake or argument that the author of Mark is generally conveying in Greek what Jesus said in Aramaic, then we have good reason to think that at least the author of Mark was trying to convey to his readers that HE HIMSELF [the author] believed Jesus was God by the use of "ego eimi" and references to the "Son of Man." But even if Jesus didn't say what He did in Greek, the concept of the "Son of Man" could have still been uttered by Jesus. In fact, the "Son of Man" statements of Jesus in the Gospels are usually considered likely historically authentic by scholars because it passes the Criterion of Authenticity called "Dissimilarity/Discontinuity." Because the New Testament church and the early church fathers weren't in the habit of referring to Jesus as the "Son of Man." In fact, scholars have said that the phrase appears to be Jesus' favorite self-designation. That Jesus referred to Himself as the Danielic "Son of Man" [in Greek or Aramaic] makes sense of His being condemned to death for blasphemy given the divine prerogatives of the figure in Daniel 7:13-14. One who rides the clouds, and will be served in a religious way that amounts to divine worship. What other alternative hypothesis can better explain Jesus' condemnation?


//Christians read all kinds of interpretations into Jesus’ alleged statements. Another Christian scholar commenting on this passage said that the high priest tore his clothes because Jesus inferred that he (the high priest) was as evil as the Greek ruler who had defiled the Temple a couple hundred years earlier. You guys are just guessing what Jesus meant, based on statements that you cannot be certain Jesus even said!//


I don't know who this anonymous Christian scholar is. So, it's difficult to comment on the claim, or confirm its accuracy. The scholar probably has a fuller defense of his claim that you're only [understandably] summarizing. But so what? How is that incompatible with what I and other Christian scholars have said about the high priest tearing his clothes and his condemnation of Jesus for blasphemy? Why assume it's a case of "either/or" rather than "both/and"? In fact, I have no problem with that possible interpretation since it's perfectly comptible with my interpretation and the interpretation of the Christian scholars I respect.


Well, I've address all of your objections. I don't expect you to respond to everything I've written. Like I said at the very beginning of this blog, I don't have time for, and so am not looking for a long debate with an atheist. I've done that plenty of times. I've also already spent a lot of time writing up this blog to address your basic objections to Christianity which other and better Christian apologists have addressed in their works [books, articles, videos, audio etc.]. But I took the time to write this up out of compassion to someone who seems to have apostatized due to emotional reasons rather than good intellectual and rational reasons.

UPDATE:

I later realized I accidentally missed responding to some of Gary's comments. So, the following is my response:

//If Jesus really was God, why all the cat and mouse games about his identity? Bottom line: Jesus does not clearly and without ambiguity claim that he is God in the Synoptics…at any time…even at the end in Jerusalem. John’s Gospels involves a much higher christology. This is evidence of an evolving view of Jesus’ divinity.//


//If Jesus really was God, why all the cat and mouse games about his identity?....//


Jesus was in a Jewish society that would have automatically rejected anybody claiming to be God in the flesh by either declaring Him crazy and leading others to dismiss Him and His teaching, or by stoning Him to death for blasphemy. That's why He had to first prove He was was the Messiah by His miraculous works. As Arnold Fruchtenbaum argues in his lectures on the Jewish Life of Christ, any Messianic candidate had to be observed in his actions. Also, I already said in my previous comments the following:

//For most of Jesus’ ministry He kept His messiahship veiled. Preferring to declare His messiahship by His deeds rather than His words. Saving the words for the end of His ministry. Scholars call this the “Messianic Secret.” See the wikipedia article on the Messianic Secret.

If Jesus kept His messiahship a secret during most of His ministry, then if He were God [the 2nd person of the Trinity], then He would all the more kept His divinity a secret. And as a matter of fact, in virtually all the places in GJohn were Jesus declares His Divinity, it’s still veiled in some sense. He’s hinting at it much more strongly than in the Synoptics, but it’s still not perfectly clear to His original audience, even though it’s meant to be clear to the readers of the Gospel. If Jesus revealed His divinity openly and overtly at the very start of His ministry, He would have been sentenced to death too early in God’s plan (especially given the prophecy in Dan. 9 about the timing of the public manifestation of the Messiah). See also, Messianic Jew Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s lectures on the Messiah and how He was supposed to declare His messiahship first by deeds here:

The Jewish Life of Christ by Arnold Fruchtenbaum [21 lectures in mp3]
https://www.deanbibleministries.org/bible-class-listing/messages/series/the-jewish-life-of-christ

//


//Bottom line: Jesus does not clearly and without ambiguity claim that he is God in the Synoptics…at any time…even at the end in Jerusalem.//


There are clear indications that the authors of Mark and Matthew believed Jesus was divine in some sense [Ehrman agrees]. I would argue even portraying Him as Yahweh. Here's the link again to my blogpost on the Christology of the Gospel of Mark:

Markan Christology
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2014/03/markan-christology.html


See also Anthony Rogers videos on Mark at his channel. He's my favorite living defender of the doctrine of the Trinity. See also his debates which are on other people's channels too.

Now to address your objection. First off, as I said before, even in the Gospel of John, Jesus' claims to deity aren't perfectly overt. Even when you factor in the more overt occasions where Jesus hints at it and alludes to it, the statements could still be interpreted in a way that evades the clear meaning of the author of John. Even the Jews in the the Gospel of John sometimes weren't sure if Jesus was claiming full deity or not. In their minds Jesus was giving them mixed messages. That's also why there are still Unitarians today who reject the idea that the Gospel of John teaches Jesus' full deity.

I'm still thinking about the height of Luke's Christology [i.e. how high?]. But how do you account for the fact that Gospels Mark and Matthew clearly presents Jesus as fully God YET doesn't have Jesus referring to Himself as God openly? If the authors were making it all up, then they could/would have put in Jesus' mouth overt claims to being Yahweh. But they don't even though they portray Jesus as Yahweh. That seems to be a mark of their trying to be historical. Of restraining themselves to the historical facts, rather than what they would like Jesus to have said. And again, Jesus doesn't do it in the Gospel of John either. Not even John 8:58 which comes closest to Jesus declaring Himself Yahweh. Unitarians even dispute the interpretation of that verse. So, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The contrast between the Synoptics portrayal of Jesus' self-identity and claims with that of GJohn isn't as stark as you portray it. Jesus does virtually claim to be Yahweh in Mark and Matthew. For example, among other places in Mark 14:62 and 6:50. In Matthew when Jesus says He's greater than the temple [Matt. 12:6], despite the Temple being the abode of God where Yahweh dwells. When Jesus says what He says in Matt. 18:20.

Matt. 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

This is meant to parallel a famous saying among rabbis during the first century.


"Where two sit together to study the Torah, the Shekinah glory [i.e. the Divine Presence] rests between them." (Mishnah, Pirke Aboth 3:2)

[Also translated, "But two who sit and exchange words of Torah, the Divine Presence rests amongst them..." - Ethics of the Fathers (Pirkei Avot), chapter 3 ]

The Jewish Annotated New Testament which is NON-Messianic, confirms this on page 34, "rabbinic teachings stated that the Divine (Heb “shekhinah”) is present when people study Torah (m. Avot 3.2,6).


 Matt. 28:20 which is the ending part of the inclusio of  Matt. 1:23 where Jesus is said to be "God WITH us." Jesus says in Matt. 28:20 "I will be WITH YOU always, to the very end of the age," echoing the inclusio of Matt. 1:23. 

At that Great Commission in Matt. 28, Jesus is also alluding to His divinity because the author of Matthew, as scholars have noted, structures his Gospel in 5 segments to mimic the 5 books of the Torah. In order to portray Jesus as the new Moses and the new Joshua [Jesus and Joshua have the same name because "Yeshua" is just a shortened version of "Yehoshua"]. Just as Moses was on the mountain about to die and gave his last instructions to the people, so Jesus is on a high hill before He departs. Just as Joshua is given the command to OBSERVE all of the Law of God and that Yahweh will be WITH him, so Jesus tells His disciples to OBSERVE all that He taught and that He will be WITH them. Notice the parallels.


Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


Joshua 1:5 No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you or forsake you.


Joshua 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go."


Jesus is clearly being portrayed as doing what Yahweh did at the end of the book of Deuteronomy and the beginning of the book of Joshua. Just as Joshua and His army are told by Yahweh to go INWARD to invade the Promised Land to conquer, so Jesus tells His army [i.e. the Church] to conquer going OUTWARD by converting the nations into disciples.

Acts chapter 1 has Jesus commanding the disciples to disciple the nations in concentric circles outward from Jerusalem [Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, then the ends of the earth].

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."


Remember too that the ending of GMatt and GLuke [Matt. 28:17 and Luke 24:52] have the disciples worshipping Jesus. Yes, the word for "worship" could be translated to mean "do obeisance" as to a human ruler, but the context and rest of the books make it clear that it's a worship of Jesus as divine.

 

//This is evidence of an evolving view of Jesus’ divinity.//


Most scholars hold to Markan Priority. Meaning, Mark was written first. Yet, Mark has nearly as high a Christology as John [as I prove in my blogpost and as Anthony Rogers does in his videos]. So there's very little development in the level of Christology. It's mostly just it being expressed differently. Part of the reason why it might be expressed differently is because the Synoptics more closely record the ipsissima verba of Jesus, while the GJohn records the ipsissima vox [see Craig Evans' statements on this in his videos and books].


See also Lydia McGrew's statements where she opposes some of what Evans' says about ipsissima vox. I think the truth is somewhere in between the views of Lydia McGrew and Craig Evans.


My blogpost:

Why Don't the Synoptics Have Jesus Claiming to be the "I Am"?
https://trinitynotes.blogspot.com/2018/03/why-dont-synoptics-have-jesus-claiming.html


Here's a blogpost from my all time favorite all around apologist, the late Steve Hays:

Are the "I am" statements authentic? by Steve Hays
https://triablogue.blogspot.com/2018/03/are-i-am-statements-authentic.html


See Lydia McGrew's thoughts on the topic:

Jesus never said the "I am" statements? by Lydia McGrew
https://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/2017/09/jesus-never-said-i-am-statements.html


Transcript and commentary: The "I am" statements, again by Lydia McGrew
https://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/2018/03/transcript-and-commentary-i-am.html


UPDATE TWO:

MORE LINKS:


See Trent Horn's video here:

Nothing Fails Like Bible History (REBUTTED) by Trent Horn
https://youtu.be/kc-wpFyb_yo


Is the Exodus History? A Conversation with Dr. Titus Kennedy
https://youtu.be/czUyRQ6rUXw


EP29: Egyptian Evidence for the Exodus w/ Dr. Titus Kennedy and Dr. Steve Meyer, Discovery Institute
https://youtu.be/ZMMxf1HeE0c


29 comments:

  1. First, thank you for the detailed response.

    "Not all archaeologists are Egyptologists [i.e. specialize in ancient Egypt]. According to archaeologist James Hoffmeier's informal survey, while it's true that most archaeologists reject the historicity of the Exodus, from his finite inductive study, most Egyptologists either believe or suspect that the Exodus occurred."

    I've read Hoffmeier's books. He makes comments such as: "We found the ruins of such and such city mentioned in the Book of Exodus. This find substantiates the Exodus Story!" Nonsense. Someone writing a fictional story in circa 650 BCE might have been aware of an ancient Egyptian city and included it in his tall tale. Hoffmeier desperately wants the Exodus Story to be true, and therefore desperately appeals to poor quality evidence as proof of his desired outcome.

    Why do you choose to believe Hoffmeier's "informal survey" without actually seeing the actual data? I would guess it is the same reason many evangelical apologists accept Gary Habermas' unsubstantiated claim that 70% of all NT scholars believe in the historicity of Jesus' tomb. They want to! I suggest we see actual data before believing anyone's "informal" survey.

    But the fact remains, a significant percentage of the world's archaeologists reject the historicity of the Exodus, the Forty Years in the Sinai, AND the Conquest of Canaan. Even the majority of Israeli archaeologists reject the biblical Conquest of Canaan.

    Bottom line: hundreds of thousands, maybe a couple million, Jews exited ancient Egypt in mass, wandered around the Sinai for 40 years, and then invaded and conquered Palestine...but the majority of archaeologists say there is no trace of these events. Yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but absence of evidence in this case is a strong indication that this event did NOT happen. Apologists still want to debate the evidence on this issue, but I trust the overwhelming majority expert opinion.

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  2. On the topic of the evolving concept of an afterlife in the New Testament:

    "Since there's the Biblical concept of progressive revelation whereby God grants more and more information about spiritual matters down through Redemptive History. It's not one large data dump."

    Says who? Did God say this or is this "apologetic spin", an ad hoc "harmonization" to explain away inconsistencies in one's belief system? Yes, the Christian god may exist and, yes, progressive revelation might be true. But it is also entirely possible that the concept of an afterlife did not develop until the Jews were taken into captivity and exposed to the religions of Babylon, Persia, and Greece/Macedonia. Prior to their captivity, Jews believed that obedience to God resulted in blessings in THIS life. Once they were captives, the chances of blessings in this life looked bleak, their theology changed. Now obedience to God might not provide any benefits in the life, but one could look forward to blessings (or punishment) in the next.

    Bottom line: Progressive revelation might be true but it also may be nothing more than an ad hoc rationalization for a gaping inconsistency between the God of the Hebrews and the God of Christians. In my re-evaluation of Christianity, it wasn't just one inconsistency. It was MANY. I came to realize that Christianity is a house of cards, a house of cards held together by the glue of ASSUMPTIONS. Christians must make a lot of assumptions to maintain their faith.

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  3. "A common objection to the historicity of Jesus is that there are too many parallels to Jesus and the Old Testament. But the parallel aren't as strong as they could be or would be if the Gospel writers were making it all up and fabricating it whole cloth. Another related objection is that passages in the Old Testament are eisegetically [rather than exegetically] pressed and forced to refer to Jesus. But if the Gospel authors were making it up, they would have made the parallels and fulfillments fit better if they used JUST A LITTLE bit more imagination. The fact that the Gospels don't do that fits better with the Gospel authors being constrained by the actual historical facts of Jesus rather than spinning fake tales."

    The Gospel authors say themselves that the purpose of the gospels was: "so that you believe (in Jesus as the Christ). They were not attempting to write class room history books. They were writing works of evangelization in a genre of ancient literature that allowed for extensive embellishments as long as they remained true to the character of the central figure of the story. The Gospel authors believed that Jesus was the promised messiah, the promised King of the New Israel. The Messiah would have to be the greatest prophet and king that Israel had ever seen! So that is what they did: they invented stories, paralleling stories from the OT, shoehorning Jesus in, so that it appeared that the arrival of Jesus had been prophesied.

    One only has to look at the prophecy of "a virgin shall conceive" in Isaiah 7 and the "suffering servant" prophecy in Isaiah 53 to see that Christian authors completely distorted these passages. Anyone who sits down and reads the entire chapter of Isaiah chapter 7 can clearly see that the author was talking about a child born during King Hezekiah's time, not centuries later in Jesus' time. And if one reads the five chapter before Isaiah chapter 53, one sees the suffering servant is none other than..."Israel", the corporate body of the Jewish people.

    Even evangelical apologists agree that they prophecies were not initially written about Jesus. They try to say that the Gospel authors used these passages as Midrashes. Good grief! Why can't Christians just admit: the Gospel authors "shoehorned" Jesus into prophecies and passages which were clearly not about him. Again, the Gospel authors were writing religious propaganda, not history books.

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    1. At the time of the writing of this comment, I've posted my addition comments to what I accidentally missed responding to.

      //Hoffmeier desperately wants the Exodus Story to be true, and therefore desperately appeals to poor quality evidence as proof of his desired outcome.//

      This is why I already said earlier that some of his arguments and statements have been refuted, and why I pointed you to David Falk's materials.

      //Why do you choose to believe Hoffmeier's "informal survey" without actually seeing the actual data?//

      I have no reason to think he's lying. At most, maybe his sample size isn't large enough. The archaeological data is a separate [though admittedly related] topic than what Egyptologists subjectively believe based on the information they have at their disposal. IF it is true that most Egyptologists believe or suspect a literal Exodus happened, then that's saying something. That would suggest that they have some reasons for suspecting it. Again, see Falk's materials, and Titus Kennedy's book [though, Falk has some negative things to say about it].

      //I would guess it is the same reason many evangelical apologists accept Gary Habermas' unsubstantiated claim that 70% of all NT scholars believe in the historicity of Jesus' tomb. They want to! I suggest we see actual data before believing anyone's "informal" survey.//

      I didn't appeal to that statement by Habermas. I have no opinion on it. Other than the suspicion I think he might be including too many conservatives who aren't degreed in fields that would make their opinion as valuable. Something which would be less likely to happen among Egyptologists [though, I'm obviously not claiming their are perfectly unbiased].

      //But the fact remains, a significant percentage of the world's archaeologists reject the historicity of the Exodus, the Forty Years in the Sinai, AND the Conquest of Canaan. Even the majority of Israeli archaeologists reject the biblical Conquest of Canaan.//

      And some of that may be due to people egos and the psychological pressure to conform to the guild. Few want to be seen as "fundamentalists." Plus, as Falk states, the tide is slowly turning. There are more Biblical maximalists rather than minimalists now then there have been in the last few decades due to the archaeological evidence.

      //Bottom line: hundreds of thousands, maybe a couple million, Jews exited ancient Egypt in mass,//

      It's probably not in the millions, but in the tends of thousands. See this article:
      https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QZw9KAJoukv7z2yLhgz9gGjfkucQC_1_/view?usp=drive_open

      //but the majority of archaeologists say there is no trace of these events.//

      That could be due to a number of factors. The smaller numbers of the Exodus. The passage of time can destroy evidence [e.g. weathering, erosion etc.]. There are many archaeological discoveries that have yet to be catalogued. Archaeology is a relatively new discipline. What, ~150 years? It's only just begun. The areas to be excavated are numerous and vast and it hasn't all been examined yet. Artifacts can be reused by later peoples and so the evidences can sometimes be destroyed [e.g. reusing building materials etc.]. More could be said.

      See Trent Horn's video here:

      Nothing Fails Like Bible History (REBUTTED) by Trent Horn
      https://youtu.be/kc-wpFyb_yo

      I forgot to add this link in the main blog. I'll add it later.

      Is the Exodus History? A Conversation with Dr. Titus Kennedy
      https://youtu.be/czUyRQ6rUXw

      EP29: Egyptian Evidence for the Exodus w/ Dr. Titus Kennedy and Dr. Steve Meyer, Discovery Institute
      https://youtu.be/ZMMxf1HeE0c

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    2. //Says who? Did God say this or is this "apologetic spin", an ad hoc "harmonization" to explain away inconsistencies in one's belief system?//

      You find this in the Torah itself. For example, Moses predicts a prophet "like unto himself" in Deut. 18. Though, some Jews like to claim that's Joshua, he doesn't fit the bill. Also, if it were Joshua, why not just say, "Obey Joshua"? It's obviously being cryptic for a reason. Because it's a prophecy having to do with someone other than Joshua son of Nun. Notice the prophecy of the protoevangelium of Gen. 3:15. Or the prophecy of the "star" in Num. 24:17. Et cetera. Many of the prophecies in the Torah presuppose fuller disclosure or revelation in the future.

      //But it is also entirely possible that the concept of an afterlife did not develop until the Jews were taken into captivity and exposed to the religions of Babylon, Persia, and Greece/Macedonia.//

      The concept of an afterlife is found in every layer of the OT. Both earlier and late. The very fact that they were prohibited from trying to contact the dead presupposes a belief in the afterlife. Why not just say, there is no afterlife, and therefore it's foolish to try to communicate with the dead? If they already believed in no afterlife, then such a command would be pointless. Job might be the oldest book in the OT. Yet it too hints at an afterlife [cf. e.g. Job 19:25-26; 14:14 etc].

      //But it is also entirely possible that the concept of an afterlife did not develop until the Jews were taken into captivity and exposed to the religions of Babylon, Persia, and Greece/Macedonia.//

      Skeptics like to say that there were no Jews distinct from the Canaanites, but that they are just Canaanites. Yet, the Canaanites believed in an afterlife. The concept of an afterlife is pervasive in human cultures because [I suspect] God has placed that hope in the human heart. As Eccl. 3:11 states, God "has put eternity into man's heart..." Usually, the claim is exposure to Zoroastrianism lead to the Jews developing a more dualistic conception of God and The Satan & evil spirits. What evidence do you have that the "Jews" or whatever you would call or identify them, didn't have a belief in an afterlife? If you're merely saying it wasn't as sophisticated or developed, I agree. I don't see how that in any way undermines the possibility of the truth of Christianity. Especially since Near Death Experiences AND Deathbed Experiences seems to be a universal experience of human beings.

      //Prior to their captivity, Jews believed that obedience to God resulted in blessings in THIS life. Once they were captives, the chances of blessings in this life looked bleak, their theology changed. Now obedience to God might not provide any benefits in the life, but one could look forward to blessings (or punishment) in the next.//

      That's naive. In any geographic and temporal location a human finds himself, if he's aware of his surroundings, he'll see how the virtuous aren't always blessed in this life, or the wicked cursed. That's part of the story of Job. If Job is one of the oldest oral traditions and/or books among Jews, then they would have known that lesson early on. Moreover, doesn't that just violate the common skeptical claim that the portions of the OT testament that happen to also promise great blessing for obedience were written relatively late because they were fabricated to encourage national and religious unity, cohesion and solidarity. So, which is it? Did they change their theology to be less optimistic, or was it initially fabricated as optimistic despite being written late [maybe even after the captivities]? It doesn't seem one can have it both ways. I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing, so my objections might not actually work. But I am trying to respond with something.

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    3. //for a gaping inconsistency between the God of the Hebrews and the God of Christians.//

      I don't think there's a gapping inconsistency at all. For example, the evidence for the Trinity in the Old Testament is strong. As I said, see Anthony Rogers materials. It's post-2nd Temple Judaism that departed from the pluritarian conception of God found in the OT and in 2nd Temple Judaism. See again Alan Segal's book, Two Powers In Heaven.

      //In my re-evaluation of Christianity, it wasn't just one inconsistency. It was MANY. I came to realize that Christianity is a house of cards, a house of cards held together by the glue of ASSUMPTIONS.//

      That's vague claim. I would need to know more of the specifics in order to address it. Preferrably your VERY BEST examples of inconsistency.

      //The Gospel authors say themselves that the purpose of the gospels was: "so that you believe (in Jesus as the Christ). They were not attempting to write class room history books. They were writing works of evangelization....//

      Agreed. So far, there's nothing wrong with that.

      //...in a genre of ancient literature that allowed for extensive embellishments as long as they remained true to the character of the central figure of the story.//

      I would possibly agree or disagree depending on how you define "extensive." Again, see Mike Licona's materials on literary and compositional devices. I think there's some truth to what he's saying, but he kind of goes a bit too far in his application.

      //So that is what they did: they invented stories, paralleling stories from the OT, shoehorning Jesus in, so that it appeared that the arrival of Jesus had been prophesied.//

      Again, that doesn't address my comments. Nor of the videos I posted. For example:

      Is the Story of Jesus Stolen From the Old Testament?
      https://youtu.be/AgHfZaPNddo

      Nor does that address the miracles that have been happening down through history in the name of Christ. I already mentioned the books by Keener, Moreland, Gardner, & Larmer books. I should have mentioned Strobel's "The Case for Miracles." See also these older public domain books:

      The Ministry of Healing: Miracles of Cure In All Ages by A.J. Gordon
      https://books.google.com/books?id=FEAXAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

      The Suppressed Evidence by Thomas Boys
      https://books.google.com/books?id=5B0PAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

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    4. //One only has to look at the prophecy of "a virgin shall conceive" in Isaiah 7 and the "suffering servant" prophecy in Isaiah 53 to see that Christian authors completely distorted these passages.//

      Here's my slightly dated blog on the topic of the Virgin Birth:
      https://bibledifficultiesanswered.blogspot.com/2015/06/isa-714-matt-123-and-virgin-birth.html

      I disagree with you of course. I can't spend all of my time addressing every minor alleged problem you bring up. So far, most of them have been basic ones that other apologists have already dealt with and you seem to be unware of. If you gave me your top 3 VERY BEST objections to Christianity, I might address them. Though a part of me would rather not. Because there are other better apologists who do it better. I try to do just enough apologetics to whet the appetite of people who are really interested in the truth to see that Christians do have some answers and then hopefully get them to do more and better research. Hopefully, I can point to some of those better resources. For example, my favorite all time apologist is Steve Hays. He died in 2020. Even now, his materials are no longer on the frontier of apologetics. But I would still recommend his materials at Triablogue.blogspot.com.

      //the entire chapter of Isaiah chapter 7 can clearly see that the author was talking about a child born during King Hezekiah's time, not centuries later in Jesus' time.//

      See the list of books in defense of the Messiahship of Jesus I linked to above. Moreover, some Christians like myself have no problem with dual fulfillment. Also, check out the articles of Triablogue by Steve Hay and Jason Engwer.

      //And if one reads the five chapter before Isaiah chapter 53, one sees the suffering servant is none other than..."Israel", the corporate body of the Jewish people.//

      I wish I saved the links to the better videos where Brown addresses this objection, but Michael L. Brown explodes that common objection in this short video:
      https://youtu.be/rXdAJdQFHM4

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  4. "And some of that may be due to people egos and the psychological pressure to conform to the guild."

    Bias and assumptions.

    I've found when the majority of experts agree with the conservative Christian position (Jesus existed) conservative Christians insist this position is based on solid evidence. When the majority of experts disagree with the conservative Christian position (the non-historicity of the Exodus; the non-eyewitness/associate of eyewitness authorship of the Gospels) conservative Christians attack the majority of experts as being biased against the Bible and Christianity.

    Bottom line: Most evangelical Christians do not believe in Jesus the Christ due to historical evidence. Most evangelical Christians believe because of the subjective perception of a spirit "dwelling within them". That is the discussion we should be having: How do you know that a spirit (ghost) lives within you, communicating in a "still, small voice"?

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  5. "the evidence for the Trinity in the Old Testament is strong."

    Tell that to the hundreds if not thousands of Jewish Bible scholars! When such a large percentage of experts disagrees with your position, calling the evidence for your position "strong" is ridiculous. The more accurate statement for your position would be: The evidence for my position is highly contested, but I believe it to be true anyway. Christians read into the OT want they want to believe the OT authors "really meant to say". The problem is, so do Mormons and Muslims. You can twist any text to conform with your beliefs if you try hard and long enough. Christians have had 2,000 years to harmonize their beliefs with the Jewish Bible.

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  6. "Nor does that address the miracles that have been happening down through history in the name of Christ. I already mentioned the books by Keener, Moreland, Gardner, & Larmer books. I should have mentioned Strobel's "The Case for Miracles.""

    Have you read Keener's two volume book on miracles? I have. In the book, Keener admits he spent not one DIME on research. He simply collected hundreds of anecdotal stories and presents them as evidence. Silly. We can do the very same thing for alleged miracles performed by Allah, the Mormon god, the Hindu gods, etc., etc. Uneducated human beings have for millennia seen cause and effect in almost every event of nature. Lightening: a god it. Drought: a god did it. Flood: a god did it. Auntie Betsie recovered from her cancer: a god did it. Ignorant superstitions. Trust science, not superstitions and hocus pocus, my friend.

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  7. "So far, most of them (your reasons for abandoning Christianity) have been basic ones that other apologists have already dealt with and you seem to be unware of. If you gave me your top 3 VERY BEST objections to Christianity, I might address them."

    1. Disputed eyewitness testimony for a 2,000 year old supernatural claim is NOT good evidence. You may believe that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, but I am not interested in debating the point. I am simply pointing out that the best evidence you have for the central claim of your religion is very disputed: a large percentage of scholars, almost everyone other than evangelicals and fundamentalist Protestants, reject the eyewitness/associate of eyewitness authorship of the Gospels. For all we know, all the miracle claims about Jesus are fictional.

    2. I have found that most evangelical Christians did not come to faith in Jesus as the Christ through historical evidence but due to an emotional experience or a crisis. Would you briefly detail the circumstances for your conversion to Christianity?

    3. I believe that most evangelical Christians believe in Jesus the resurrected Christ due to something they call "the testimony of the Holy Spirit". Would you please explain what this is and if you have experienced this "testimony" in some fashion?

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  8. I only got to check if you left a message at ~7:40PM CST. I'm currently multi-tasking and watching a movie. I'll response tomorrow, deo volente.

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    1. Do you plan on replying to my last comment?

      Delete
    2. I'll send the rest of today (Dec. 6th) responding to your posts.

      Delete
  9. I have found that evangelicals are often very reluctant to discuss the circumstances of their conversion to Christianity and the topic of the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Why? Because such a discussion usually reveals the true reason for the belief: their emotions. Appeals to historical evidence is merely a socially respectable facade for the true reason for their belief in virginal conceptions, water walking, and corpse reanimation.

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  10. "That begs the question that the Bible isn’t self-attesting and self-authenticating and that there is no sensus divinitatis and the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit to the truths of the Gospel. I deny that non-Christians can make any sense of knowledge given their consistent use of their non-Christian worldviews and presuppositions."

    And there you have it, folks. According to evangelical (and many other conservative and moderate) Christians: atheists are blind to the truths of Christianity due to the fact that we lack the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit: magical knowledge from a ghost!

    This is why debating historical evidence with an evangelical Christian is a complete waste of time. Their belief is not based on historical evidence! Their belief is based upon the intense emotions they experience in their delusion that the ghost of a man who died 2,000 years ago lives somewhere within their bodies; a ghost who whispers secret wisdom and life guidance into their ears.

    And lastly, just because a particular worldview pretends to have all the answers to life’s big questions, does that automatically make that worldview true? The evidence indicates otherwise. Time and time again science has proven the Christian worldview wrong. (a six day creation, a flat earth, heliocentricity, etc..). It is always science causing revisions (reinterpretations) of the Christian worldview and not the reverse.

    Orthodox (conservative) Christianity is a cult. It’s members are seriously deluded. That is why when backed into a corner, they appeal to vague philosophical principles in a desperate attempt to give respectability to their belief in ghosts and magic.

    Virgins don’t give birth to babies. Humans can’t walk on water. Brain-dead corpses never come back to life. It’s that simple, folks. You don’t need a PhD in philosophy to know that.

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  11. Please forgive me for not responding sooner. In my 25 years of doing apologetics, I find that the vast majority of atheists don't avail themselves of the resources I recommended. Even those that are freely online. Most don't care to investigate because they don't want to believe [or believe anymore]. Most just/only want to justify their continued unbelief, and are not seriously looking for answers. So, often it feels like I'm just wasting my time on people who don't appreciate what I'm doing. Also, fielding the same objections can get tiring, boring and burdensome. Especially nowadays when sufficient answers are usually a google click away and provided by other better apologists. This wasn't the case during the vast majority of human history. So, people living in the internet age are so much more culpable for not availing themselves of the resources at their fingertips. I used to feel the burden of having to answer every non-Christian, and every one of their objections [as per 1 Pet. 3:15], but I now realize that that's a slightly skewed intepretation of the verse.

    //When the majority of experts disagree with the conservative Christian position (the non-historicity of the Exodus; the non-eyewitness/associate of eyewitness authorship of the Gospels) conservative Christians attack the majority of experts as being biased against the Bible and Christianity.//

    The guild can sometimes be wrong. For example, for the longest time archaeologists believed there were no Hittites, or a Pontius Pilate. But then they had to change their opinions when archaeological evidence was discovered. Examples could be multiplied.

    //Most evangelical Christians do not believe in Jesus the Christ due to historical evidence. Most evangelical Christians believe because of the subjective perception of a spirit "dwelling within them".//

    That's true. Most don't. But some do. For example, Jonathan McLatchie (a Calvinist like me) is an apologist who doesn't consciously sense an inner witness of the Holy Spirit. That's why he focuses on the objective evidence for Christianity. For example, he has tweeted, "I would implore Christians to drop the assertion that all believers have an "inner witness of the Holy Spirit" that attests to the gospel's truth wholly apart from evidence, since it is manifestly untrue. Bearing false witness about God is no small matter." Check out HIS WEBSITE and two YouTube channels HERE and HERE.

    CONTINUED BELOW

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    1. //Tell that to the hundreds if not thousands of Jewish Bible scholars! When such a large percentage of experts disagrees with your position, calling the evidence for your position "strong" is ridiculous.//

      Of course Jewish rabbis and scholars can have biases too. However, some more objective Jewish scholars disagree. Dr. Benjamin Sommer, a professor in Bible and ancient Near Eastern languages at the Jewish Theological Seminary (that’s right, the Jewish Theological Seminary) wrote in his recent book, The Bodies of God. QUOTE: “Some Jews regard Christianity’s claim to be a monotheistic religion with grave suspicion, both because of the doctrine of the trinity (how can three equal one?) and because of Christianity’s core belief that God took bodily form. . . . No Jew sensitive to Judaism’s own classical sources, however, can fault the theological model Christianity employs when it avows belief in a God who has an earthly body as well as a Holy Spirit and a heavenly manifestation, for that model, we have seen, is a perfectly Jewish one. A religion whose scripture contains the fluidity traditions [referring to God appearing in bodily form in the Tanakh], whose teachings emphasize the multiplicity of the shekhinah, and whose thinkers speak of the sephirot does not differ in its theological essentials from a religion that adores the triune God.” END QUOTE

      He has various lectures online where he says this. For example, this SHORT VIDEO CLIP. Other non-Christian Jewish scholars have come to similar conclusions. I already mentioned Alan F. Segal and his book "Two Powers". There's also Daniel Boyarin. Check out his materials [e.g. The Gospel of the Memra: Jewish Binitarianism and the Prologue to John]. There are other Jewish scholars as well. Nor does your comment take into full consideration the list of rabbis who did convert and become believers in Yeshua. Some of them were great Jewish scholars, even gedolim. I already listed above the two part article "Rabbis Who Thought For Themselves."

      //The more accurate statement for your position would be: The evidence for my position is highly contested, but I believe it to be true anyway.//

      I doubt you've actually encountered the better arguments for the Trinity in the Old Testament. I've already mentioned Anthony Rogers debates and YT channel. See also his articles HERE

      CONT.

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    2. I doubt you've actually encountered the better arguments for the Trinity in the Old Testament. I've already mentioned Anthony Rogers debates and YT channel. See also his articles HERE

      //In the book, Keener admits he spent not one DIME on research. He simply collected hundreds of anecdotal stories and presents them as evidence. Silly. We can do the very same thing for alleged miracles performed by Allah, the Mormon god, the Hindu gods, etc...//

      Keener presents some medical documentation. His newer book has 70% more information. With regard to alleged miracles in other religions, that's perfectly compatible with Christianity. In Christianity God sometimes answers the prayers of non-Christians out of His pure mercy. Also, in Christianity demons can perform lying signs, wonders and miracles. Every miracle claim should be tested on a case by case basis. It's usually the atheist who a priori rejects the miracle claims of all religions out of his own bias. If the atheist were a serious investigator, he would investigate many of the millions of claims of the miraculous. How many of them do atheists investigate? Very little. Even the atheist skeptic "The Amazing Rani" has been exposed as a biased fraud (e.g. HERE). The very fact that so many religions testify to supernatural events suggests [not proves] the reality of the supernatural. Of the billions alleged, only one is necessary to establish the supernatural. Whereas, atheists need to debunk every alleged supernatural event before he can confidently say supernatural events don't occur. What's more likely? That of the millions upon millions of claimed supernatural events that absolutely all of them are false, or that at least some of them are real? Remember, some of these claims are made by credible witnesses. Some of them have degrees in relevant fields [e.g. medical field, scientific fields, philosophic fields etc.]. If even 1% of 1% were real, then that would be in the tens of thousands.

      //Lightening: a god it. Drought: a god did it. Flood: a god did it. Auntie Betsie recovered from her cancer: a god did it. Ignorant superstitions. Trust science, not superstitions and hocus pocus, my friend.//

      It's a logical fallacy to therefore conclude no supernatural events or miracles occur. Your anti-supernatural bias is merely showing.

      //Disputed eyewitness testimony for a 2,000 year old supernatural claim is NOT good evidence.//

      The evidence for Christianity isn't limited to the testimony of the Bible. Anyone who knows about Christian apologetics knows the evidence comes from various fields and multiple lines of converging evidence which snowballs into evidence that cannot be ignored.

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    3. //I have found that most evangelical Christians did not come to faith in Jesus as the Christ through historical evidence but due to an emotional experience or a crisis.//

      You're bordering on the genetic fallacy. That something is false because of the origin of the belief. Just because I might believe the earth is round because I read it in a Spider-Man comic book DOESN'T mean that the earth ISN'T round.

      //I believe that most evangelical Christians believe in Jesus the resurrected Christ due to something they call "the testimony of the Holy Spirit".//

      The Internal Testimony of the Holy Spirit by James N. Anderson
      https://www.proginosko.com/2017/01/the-internal-testimony-of-the-holy-spirit/

      William Lane Craig isn't a presuppositionalist or Calvinist [he's a Molinist] but he has some useful material that we can pick and choose from that addressed issues concerning the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit:

      Epistemic Justification of Christian Faith for Talbot School of Theology by William Lane Craig
      https://youtu.be/KG-hs31tYT4

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    4. Craig addressing criticisms of his view regarding the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit. For example:

      Craig has addressed criticisms of his view regarding the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit. For example:

      Counterfeit Claims of the Spirit’s Witness (Q & A #30)
      https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/counterfeit-claims-of-the-spirits-witness

      The Witness of the Holy Spirit (Q & A #68)
      https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/the-witness-of-the-holy-spirit

      The Witness of the Spirit as an Intrinsic Defeater-Defeater (Q & A #136)
      https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/the-witness-of-the-spirit-as-an-intrinsic-defeater-defeater

      Counterfeit Claims to the Witness of the Spirit (Q & A #167)
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/counterfeit-claims-to-the-witness-of-the-spirit

      Belief in God As Properly Basic (Q & A #195)
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/belief-in-god

      Is Appeal to the Witness of the Holy Spirit Question-Begging? (Q & A #237)
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-appeal-to-the-witness-of-the-holy-spirit-question-begging

      Witness of the Holy Spirit and Defeasibility of Christian Belief (Q & A #244)
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/witness-of-the-holy-spirit-and-defeasibility-of-christian-belief

      Critique of Holy Spirit Epistemology (audio podcast 8/12/2013)
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/critique-of-holy-spirit-epistemology

      Answering Critics of the Inner Witness of the Spirit (audio podcast 8/17/2014)
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/answering-critics-of-the-inner-witness-of-the-spirit#ixzz3AlzMEmGS

      Emotions and Deciding Whether Christianity Is True
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/emotions-and-deciding-whether-christianity-is-true

      Blind Faith?
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/blind-faith

      Properly Understanding Properly Basic Beliefs
      http://www.reasonablefaith.org/properly-understanding-properly-basic-beliefs

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    5. //Why? Because such a discussion usually reveals the true reason for the belief: their emotions. Appeals to historical evidence is merely a socially respectable facade for the true reason for their belief in virginal conceptions, water walking, and corpse reanimation.//

      Even if that were true, so what? That doesn't disprove Christianity. Maybe God uses emotions, even personal disasters to bring His elect into the fold. Moreover, I already pointed out that there are Christians like McLatchie who don't believe based on a sense of the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit. All this is a red herring.

      //According to evangelical (and many other conservative and moderate) Christians: atheists are blind to the truths of Christianity due to the fact that we lack the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit: magical knowledge from a ghost!//

      That's a strawman representation that doesn't tell the whole story.

      //This is why debating historical evidence with an evangelical Christian is a complete waste of time.//

      Not if their arguments are good. What matters are the arguments, not feelings. You're focused on feelings. Maybe you're complaining that you didn't get such feelings when you were a Christian. Or maybe complaining that you were duped by such feelings when you were a Christian. Well, then stop living according to feeling, and according to truth and reason. There is no good reason to conclude that Christianity is definitely false. Even well known atheist promoter John Loftus has said many times that with all his knowledge, education and arguments against Christianity, Christianity could still be true. He just thinks it's very, very, very unlikely. Whereas, I think there's good reason to think Christianity IS true.

      //Their belief is based upon the intense emotions they experience in their delusion that the ghost of a man who died 2,000 years ago lives somewhere within their bodies; a ghost who whispers secret wisdom and life guidance into their ears.//

      Now you're just mocking Christianity. Well, mocking it can harden yourself all the more to truth of Christianity. I wonder if you've every honestly sought God through serious humble prayer and soul searching. I find that most apostates haven't. Few, for example, even read the entire Bible before their deconversion. Few even spent at least 3 days in fasting and praying. Few actually read serious works on apologetics. Rather, most were nominal Christians who never took their Christian faith seriously.

      //Time and time again science has proven the Christian worldview wrong. (a six day creation, a flat earth, heliocentricity, etc..).//

      You meant to say geocentrism. The Bible doesn't definitely teach a literal six day creation. It doesn't teach a flat earth. It doesn't teach absolute geocentrism. The Bible is perfectly compatible with Old Earth Creationism. I hold to OEC. The Bible is compatible with a round earth. Given the General Theory of Relativity, all motion is relative. In which case, BOTH relative geocentrism and relative heliocentrism are perfectly acceptable scientifically. What's rejected as scientific heresy in the guild is **absolute** geocentrism. See my blog HERE of various quotes from well known reputable scientists like Einstein who admit that relative geocentrism is perfectly fine.

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    6. For example Stephen Hawking said, "So which is real, the Ptolemaic or Copernican system? Although it is not uncommon for people to say that Copernicus proved Ptolemy wrong, that is not true...one can use either picture as a model of the universe, for our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest."

      Astronomer, Fred Hoyle said: "Let it be understood at the outset that it makes no difference, from the point of view of describing planetary motion, whether we take the Earth or the Sun as the center of the solar system. Since the issue is one of relative motion only, there are infinitely many exactly equivalent descriptions referred to different centers - in principle any point will do, the Moon, Jupiter...So the passions loosed on the world by the publication of Copernicus' book, De revolutionibus orbium caelestium libri VI, were logically irrelevant..."

      - Astronomer, Fred Hoyle said, "...we can take either the Earth or the Sun, or any other point for that matter, as the center of the solar system. This is certainly so for the purely kinematical problem of describing the planetary motions. It is also possible to take any point as the center even in dynamics, although recognition of this freedom of choice had to await the present century."

      //It is always science causing revisions (reinterpretations) of the Christian worldview and not the reverse.//

      That's not true. As W.L. Craig said, for centuries the Judeo-Christian tradition held to the doctrine of creation out of nothing (ex nihilo) in the face of ancient Greek philosophy, modern enlightenment naturalism, and modern materialism and idealism. All of which said that the universe is eternal and uncreated. And in the face of that almost universal opposition, the Judeo-Christian tradition has held to the doctrine of creation out of nothing. And then dramatically during the course of the 20th century, against all expectation, this prediction was verified by modern science. Which has established rigorously that there is a past boundary to the universe before which, literally, nothing existed.

      Junk DNA has been found to not be junk, as Intelligent Design proponents predicted would happen. Moreover, I doubt you've read all the scientific books I recommended earlier, like those of Meyer.

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    7. //Virgins don’t give birth to babies. Humans can’t walk on water. Brain-dead corpses never come back to life. It’s that simple, folks. You don’t need a PhD in philosophy to know that.//

      You haven't inductively proven that. Nor can your justify your belief in the natural laws you base your beliefs & claims on. Even given scientific laws, statistically unlikely freak events can happen. Moreover, given atheism, we might ultimately live in an unordered universe in which metaphysically chance events happen uncaused. Or caused by metaphysical Chance [think something akin to Anaximander's apeiron]. Finally, our claim has never been that these types of things happened in the Bible on natural grounds. Rather on supernatural grounds due to personal supernatural agents like God, angels and demons.

      Earlier I mentioned that Steve Hays is my favorite all around apologist. See his blogs here:

      Evidence for God
      http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2016/12/im-going-to-list-and-summarize-what-i.html

      Required reading for atheists
      http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/11/required-reading-for-atheists.html

      Book Reviews of Recent Atheist Authors by Christian Apologists
      https://misclane.blogspot.com/2013/09/book-reviews-of-recent-atheist-authors.html

      Making a case for Christianity
      http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/12/making-case-for-christianity.html

      A case for Christ
      http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/01/a-case-for-christ.html

      I suspect his last two blogs aren't as exhaustive because he was suffering from cancer when he wrote them.

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    8. Oh, by the way, I wasn't claiming that the beginning of the universe as been definitely proven. I was paraphrasing William Lane Craig. Though, I do think that the preponderance of the scientific evidence would suggests that the greater likelihood is that the universe did have a beginning a finite time ago.

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  12. My response is too long for one comment space so I will break it up into three parts:


    First part: You definitely put a lot of work into your posts and comments, James. I have to compliment you for that.

    Since the first day I expressed doubts about the core claims of Christianity in early 2014, Christians have told me that my doubts are due to not having a full understanding of Christian teaching; not being sufficiently well read in Christian scholarship and theology. To counter these claims, I read the following books (from the home page on my blog):

    Welcome! This blog describes my personal journey from conservative Christianity to a non-supernaturalist world view. Below is a list of books by scholars, Christian apologists, and by former Christians and other skeptics that I have read on the subject of Christianity and in particular, the Resurrection of Jesus. I believe it is important to be familiar with the positions of both Christians and skeptics on these issues. I would encourage all Christians and all skeptics to read these works. Highlighted titles have been quoted or reviewed, by me, on this blog:

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  13. Second part:

    “The Resurrection of the Son of God” by NT Wright
    “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses” by Richard Bauckham
    “The Death of the Messiah, Volumes I and II” by Raymond Brown
    “Making the Case for Christianity” by Maas, Francisco, et al.
    “The Resurrection Fact” by Bombaro, Francisco, et al.
    “Miracles, Volumes I and II”, by Craig Keener
    “The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus” by Gary Habermas and Michael Licona
    “Why are There Differences in the Gospels” by Michael Licona
    “The Son Rises” by William Lane Craig
    “The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus” by Raymond Brown
    “The Resurrection of Jesus” by Gerd Luedemann
    “Resurrection Reconsidered” by Gregory Riley
    “John and Thomas—Gospels in Conflict?” by Christopher Skinner
    “The Argument for the Holy Sepulchre” (journal article) by scholar Jerome Murphy-O’Connor
    “Israel in Egypt” by James Hoffmeier
    “The Bible Unearthed” by Finkelstein and Silberman
    “The Resurrection of Jesus in the Light of Jewish Burial Practices“ by Craig Evans, (newsletter article) The City, a publication of Houston Baptist University, May 4, 2016
    “Has the Tomb of Jesus Been Discovered?” by Jodi Magness, SBL Forum
    “Genre, Sub-genre and Questions of Audience: A Proposed Typology for Greco-Roman biography” (article) by Justin M. Smith, St. Mary’s College, University of St. Andrews, Scotland
    “Cold-Case Christianity” by J. Warner Wallace
    “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel
    “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Ehrman
    “Jesus, Interrupted” by Bart Ehrman
    “How Jesus Became God” by Bart Ehrman
    “Jesus Before the Gospels” by Bart Ehrman
    “Did Jesus Exist?” by Bart Ehrman
    “Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus” by Asher Norman (endorsed by Talmudic scholars for its accuracy in presenting a Jewish perspective of Jesus and the Christian New Testament)
    “The Book of Miracles” by Kenneth L. Woodward
    “Why I Believed, Reflections of a Former Missionary” by Kenneth W. Daniels
    “Why Evolution is True” by biologist Jerry Coyne
    “Masters of the Planet-the Search for our Human Origins” by Ian Tattersall
    “A Manual for Creating Atheists” by philosopher Peter Boghossian
    “Can We Trust the Gospels?” by Peter Williams
    “The Outsider Test for Faith” by John W. Loftus
    “God and the Folly of Faith: The Incompatibility of Science and Religion by physicist Victor J. Stenger
    “Lone Survivors: How We Came to Be The Only Humans on Earth” by paleoanthropologist Chris Stringer
    “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by evangelical apologists Josh and Sean McDowell
    “The Case Against Miracles” edited by John Loftus
    “The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry” by Jewish author, Michael Alter
    “The Blind Watchmaker” by biologist Richard Dawkins
    “The Other Gospels: Accounts of Jesus from Outside the New Testament” by Bart Ehrman and Zlatko Plese (currently reading)
    “The Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine
    “Conversations With My Inner Atheist” by evangelical theologian Randal Rauser
    Lord or Legend? Wrestling with the Jesus Dilemma by Gregory Boyd and Paul Eddy

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  14. Third part:

    And guess what Christian apologists say now? Answer: You haven’t read ENOUGH Christian literature!

    I have come to the conclusion that Christians will never be satisfied with my level of knowledge of Christian teaching…until I convert back to Christianity! There is always one more book that I must read to be fully informed.

    Baloney.

    How many books have most Christian apologists read on Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, and every other world religion before dismissing the supernatural claims of these religions as nonsense with a simple wave of the hand? I would venture to bet most of them. And I agree with them! I don’t need to read one Mormon book to know that Mormon supernatural claims are nonsense. I don’t need to read one Muslim book to know that Muslim supernatural claims are nonsense. And the same for Hinduism, etc.. And I don’t need to read one, single Christian book to know that the supernatural claims of Christianity are nonsense. Why? Because the evidence that the supernatural operates in our universe is piss poor! The only evidence that the supernatural operates in our universe comes from superstitious theists! For some odd reason, the supernatural does not like performing in front of non-supernaturalists (atheists)!

    Your religious beliefs are a comforting delusion, James. Abandon them for the good of all humankind. A world without superstitions would be so much safer and healthier. Take care, James.

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  15. Ask a Christian apologist for evidence of the existence of her god, and one form of evidence she will present is the existence of millions of miracle claims by Christians all over the earth.

    “How can all these claims of supernatural intervention be false?” she will ask.

    Let’s take a closer look at this “evidence”.

    Are Christians the only people claiming to experience miracles? No. People of practically every religion, cult, and sect on the planet claim to experience miracles. In addition, a comparison of the morbidity (sickness) and mortality (death) rates of Christians when compared to Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc. of the same socio-economic class demonstrates zero difference. There is no good evidence that Christian prayers achieve any better health outcomes for Christians than prayers to Allah and Lord Krishna achieve for Muslims and Hindus respectively.

    “Maybe Jesus performs miracles for non-Christians too.”

    “Maybe Satan is performing miracles in the name of Allah and Lord Krishna to deceive Muslims and Hindus.”

    Maybe.

    But what about the fact that the only people on earth claiming to experience miracles are theists? Atheists do not claim to experience miracles, yet atheists, who tend to be better educated and better off socio-economically than the average theist, have the same if not better morbidity (sickness) and mortality (death) rates than theists.

    So either the Christian god is evenly distributing his miracles among all people on planet earth, regardless of whether they are Christian, Muslim, or Hindu, and regardless of whether they are theist or atheist, or, miracles are the product of the delusional thinking of theists.

    Which is it?

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