Showing posts with label Christ Myth. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Christ Myth. Show all posts
Tuesday, July 21, 2020
The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus by William Lane Craig
Skeptics often claim that the New Testament evidence and extra-Biblical evidence isn't clear enough to conclude that the early Christians were positively claiming Jesus' resurrection body was physical rather than spiritual. William Lane Craig addresses that charge in the following article:
The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus by William Lane Craig
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/historical-jesus/the-bodily-resurrection-of-jesus/
Thursday, May 28, 2020
NT Wright responds to Richard Carrier on women and the resurrection // Ask NT Wright Anything
NT Wright responds to Richard Carrier on women and the resurrection // Ask NT Wright Anything
Wednesday, March 21, 2018
Steve Hays' Response to Richard Carrier
Steve Hays has addressed Richard Carrier a number of times at Triablogue over the years. The following are some recent blogposts that directly or indirectly address him and mythicism:
Carrier's snow machine
Carrier's allegorical method
Romulus
Art imitates life
The hero's journey
Is Jesus a mythical hero?
Richard Carrier: Christian apologist
"Schizotypals"
Corn gods
The "virgin birth" of Perseus
Sunday, January 18, 2015
Undermining Richard Carrier's version of the Christ Myth Hypothesis
(last updated 2/12/16)
With minor editing, I posted the following in a YouTube video where Richard Carrier discussed reasons for why he thinks it's possible there was no historical Jesus. Additional material not included in the YouTube comments are in RED. [My comments might eventually be deleted because the YouTube channel is named UNCG Atheists]
Minimally, Carrier's version of the Christ Myth hypothesis requires that there be no evidence for a historical/physical Jesus in the undisputed Pauline epistles. Here are some evidences/reasons from the core Pauline corpus to suggest Jesus' historicity which Carrier missed. Like Carrier, I'm excluding the contested Deutero-Pauline epistles in this survey. If I did include them in the survey, there would be EVEN MORE evidence for a historical Jesus [and the physicality of Christ's resurrection].
- Rom. 9:5 states that Jesus was physically from the Jewish (i.e. Israelite) race.
"To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."- Rom. 9:5. If this is a proper translation, then this verse is affirming Christ's dual nature and contrasting Jesus' human nature with His divine nature. See THIS LINK for the evidence of this being properly translated. Notice too that Paul refers to his fellow Jews as his kinsmen "according to the flesh" two verses earlier in verse 3. It is unlikely that Paul's use of the phrase "according to the flesh" has a different sense or meaning in verse 5 than in verse 3. Therefore, Paul is intimating that Jesus was a real historical human being.
- Rom. 1:3 Christ was made/born of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH
- 1 Thess. 2:14-15 states that the Jews/Judeans killed Jesus like they did the other prophets. Possibly Carrier missed 1 Thess. 2:14-15 because he mixes it up with 1 Tim. 6:13. First Thessalonians is one of the (if not THE) earliest uncontested Pauline book unlike 1 Timothy which is contested/disputed by liberal scholars. Some claim this is an interpolation. I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of any manuscripts that omit it or have major textual variants comparable to the interpolation in Josephus regarding Christ. Some have said, "the final sentence contains a virtually unmistakable reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred after Paul's death" and therefore must be an interpolation. But this is merely a manifestation of an anti-supernaturalistic bias. It reasons (even if only tacitly) that since the supernatural doesn't exist, the seeming prophetic statement must not be an authentic statement by Paul.
- Rom. 8:3 states that God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful FLESH and for sin, and that God condemned sin IN THE FLESH. This likely refers to Jesus physical and bodily death. Therefore implying the physicality and historicity of Jesus.
- Gal. 1:19 mentions the apostle James as "the Lord's brother" in distinction from the "other apostles." Carrier did cite 1 Cor. 9:5 which mentions the brothers of the Lord, but his response doesn't address Gal. 1:19. Hence Paul likely believed in a historical/physical Jesus. And that's excluding the siblings mentioned in the Gospels and Acts (e.g. Mark 6:3, Matthew 13:55, John 7:3, Acts 1:14).
- 1 Cor. 15:4 states Jesus was buried. The most plausible interpretation is that this refers to a literal physical burial. Hence, an indication that Jesus was a historical and physical person.
- In Galatians when Paul states his gospel was received as a revelation from Christ Paul is CONTRASTING that with how the other apostles received their gospel message (i.e. it was directly by the physical historical Jesus). Later Paul says he compared his gospel with theirs to make sure they were in harmony, and they were (Gal. 2:1-2; 2:7-10). Because of the contrast in the way the rest of the apostles received their Gospel when compared with Paul, the implication is that Jesus was a historical human being.
- Gal. 4:4 states Jesus was born/made UNDER THE LAW. Clearly intimating Jesus' physical and historical reality (cf. 1 Cor. 9:19-20 which uses the same phrase). The whole point of saying Jesus was born/made of a woman is to indicate Jesus' historicity (cf. 1 Cor. 11:12). How else is one made/born of a woman than physically and historically? Notice, how Gal. 4:4 talks about "the fullness of time" which further corroborates historicity and physicality. Being under the law (of Moses) was understood to be something literal human Jews were under.
The repeated reference to the "cross" of Christ suggests a physical cross and hence a historical/physical Jesus. 1 Cor. 1:17-18; Gal. 5:11; 6:12, 14; Phil. 2:8; 3:18.
- When Paul rhetorically asks whether he was crucified for the Corinthians rather than Jesus (1 Cor. 1:13) he's talking about a physical crucifixion. Hence, Jesus' crucifixion was physical.
- When Paul says (1 Cor. 1:23) that a crucified Messiah is a stumbling block to the Jews its because a physically suffering, dying and apparently defeated Messiah is the exact opposite of what the Jews expected. Besides, most Jews believed in a human messiah. [I take this back. I'm not sure what percentage of Jews at that time believed in a human, or divine, or spiritual or a dual natured messiah during the 1st century. However, many did believe in a human messiah].
- 1 Cor. 15:20 states that Jesus' resurrection is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. Falling asleep refers to physical death including the death of believers (verse 18). Therefore, Jesus' resurrection was a literal physical resurrection. Which presupposes a literal physical death as well. And a physical death presupposes a bodily historical Jesus who lived as a human being.
- 1 Cor. 2:8 shouldn't automatically be dismissed as heavenly/spiritual rulers rather than human rulers. Especially in light of 1 Thess. 2:14-15. It's possible it refers to both human and angelic rulers. If it does include human rulers, then that presupposes a physical and historical Jesus.
- If the resurrection of Christians is physical, and if Christ's return sets off the resurrection, then the return of Christ is physical. If Christ's return is physical, then his leaving would have been physical as well. That's especially true since the resurrection of the saints is supposed to be similar to Christ's resurrection (cf. Rom. 8:11, 23; Phil. 3:20-21).
- When Paul states (1 Cor. 5:7) that Christ was sacrificed as our Passover, that makes most sense if Jesus was physically slain like the Passover lambs.
- The communion elements of bread and wine as symbolic of Christ's body and blood (1 Cor. 11:27; 10:16) suggests physicality/historicity.
- Phil. 2:7-8 states that Jesus was "born/made in the likeness of men" and found "in human form" and died on a cross. A physical cross makes most sense in context.
- In Phil. 3:10-11 Paul states he wants to SHARE in Christ's sufferings, becoming like Christ in His death in order that he (Paul) might attain the resurrection from the dead. This makes most sense if Paul believed in Jesus' physicality/historicity since Paul's sufferings and persecutions were physical and earthly.
- The centrality and importance of the city of Jerusalem to the early Christians and the Christian community is best consistent with a historical/physical Jesus (cf. Rom. 15:19, 25-26, 31; 1 Cor. 16:3; Gal. 1:17-18; 2:1). Especially since Jesus' physical half-brother James was the main apostle in Jerusalem.
These are just SOME of the evidences and reasons.
2nd comment
In the video Carrier includes Hebrews as an early Christian text. But not as a Pauline epistle (as most scholars, whether conservative or liberal, reject Paul's authorship).
I commend Carrier for including Hebrews. But he misses the important phrase in Heb. 5:7 which talks about "in THE DAYS OF HIS [i.e. Jesus'] FLESH." Meaning his earthly life before the resurrection and ascension to heaven (without implying Christ no longer has a physical body). There's a contrast being made between Christ's current mediatorial activity in heaven and his previous activity IN THE FLESH on earth.
As well as Heb. 2:14 which specifically states Jesus partook/shared in "flesh and blood" like believers. The whole point of this passage is that Jesus didn't take the nature of angels but of humans (see verses 16-17 just two verses later). Notice earlier that verse 9 states Jesus was, for a while, made lower than the angels. Suggesting a historical and physical incarnation.
As well as Heb. 10:19-20 which mentions Jesus' blood and identifies the curtain of the heavenly temple as Jesus' flesh. The idea being that the sacrifice of Jesus' physical body is the gateway or curtain by which we on earth can enter the spiritual temple and God's presence.
Heb. 2:3-4 states, "...It [i.e. the gospel] was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." This verses suggests that Jesus first preached the gospel on earth physically in the same way human ministers and apostles later did.
"For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."- Heb. 7:14. This verses suggests Jesus was a literal physical descendant of the tribe of Judah.
3rd comment
I don't know how Carrier could miss such passages.
Carrier also missed 2 Cor. 5:16 which states, "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer." This verse contrasts regarding Christ according to the flesh and no longer doing so. It suggests and seems to presuppose a historical and physical Jesus.
Here's a link to an article by a Mythcist which lists 20 arguable references to the Gospel Jesus in the New Testament epistles. Some of the passages should be included in this blog. I'll add them if I find the time. Nevertheless, it's interesting how the writer has to do a lot of work to explain away the natural senses of many of the verses. Sometimes such verses are the only way the New Testament author could refer to Jesus as being a historical human being. That's why many mythicist arguments are unfalsifiable, ad hoc, and implausible.
Update: 2021-04-14
I got into a discussion on the topic. Here's a copy of my comments. I repeated some of the stuff from above below:
Mythicism is so implausible because it has to resort to using SO MANY ad hoc arguments to explain away all of the evidence for a historical Jesus found in all the epistles of Paul, the other epistles and the Gospels.
It has to argue for Jesus being historicized in the Gospels which were written later than Paul contrary to what one would expect given the fact that Christianity began with Jews and spread to the Gentiles. Given atheistic assumptions, one would think that the opposite would happen. That the idea of Jesus started out as a mere human among Jews then when it spread to the pagan Gentiles he was divinized via apotheosis. In fact, that's kind of what we actually see in the 2nd century Gnostics where Jesus' divinity is so emphasized that his humanity is denied. That's why near the close of the 1st century the author of the Johannine epistles had to reaffirm the humanity of Jesus against the proto-Gnostics [i.e. he identifies the spirit/teaching of the anti-Christ as denying Jesus has come in the flesh].
Mythicism doesn't explain well why the Ebionite Jews would think Jesus was only a mere human messiah. Or why the hostile testimony of the Jewish Talmud alludes to Jesus and maligns him, yet never doubts his historical existence.
Mythicism doesn't fit well with the more [not sole] universal and foundational 2nd Temple Jewish understanding and expectation that the Messiah would be human. This is why of the 30+ proposed Messianic candidates among Jews, all of them [or virtually so] have been historical figures. See the Wiki article
Mythicism doesn't fit well with the more [not sole] universal and foundational understanding that resurrection/anastasis usually means a literally bodily resurrection of a dead corpse which presupposes an actual historical existence.
Mythcism doesn't fit will with Paul's identification of his own persecution and that of fellow Christians [often by his fellow non-Messianic Jews] as analogous to, and continuation of the persecution of the Messiah through his followers [often by the same Jewish groups]. See Phil. 3:10-11; Rom. 8:17; 2 Cor. 4:10-12; Rom. 15:3; [cf. 2 Cor. 13:4; Heb. 12:3-4; Heb. 13:13-14; Deutero-Pauline Col. 1:24] This persecution of believers was physical, psychological and earthly. In which case, Christ's must have been to since they are likened to one another.
Mythicism doesn't fit well with the idea that Jesus the Messiah was crucified on a cross. Which under normal circumstances presupposes a Roman and earthly execution. cf. 1 Cor. 1:17-18; Gal. 5:11; 6:12, 14; Phil. 2:8; 3:18.
Mythicism doesn't fit well with the early Christian practice of communion [1 Cor. 11:23-26] where physical bread represents the physical body of Jesus, and physical wine represent the physical blood of Jesus. With Jesus as the NT counterpart to the OT Passover [1 Cor. 5:7] which was believed to be a historical event during the Exodus that used real physical animals originally, and since the tabernacle/Temple. Paul even alludes to Jesus' betrayal which lines up with the Gospels' portrayal of Judas.
Mythicism doesn't fit well with Paul's teaching that our death and resurrection is analogous to Christ's. Implying a historical Jesus. See Phil. 3:21; 2 Cor. 4:14; Rom. 8:11; Rom. 8:17; Rom. 14:7-9; 1 Th. 4:14-17; 1 Cor. 6:14; 1 Cor. 15:16-20. Often the contexts teaches or implies a bodily resurrection for believers. Which implies Jesus' death and resurrection were bodily too.
Mythicism doesn't give a clear and definite explanation of Jesus' brother[s] Gal. 1:19, 1 Cor. 9:5. It provides ad hoc and implausible explanations.
Mythicism doesn't fit well with Paul's understanding of "under the law" in Gal. 4:4 when compared with 1 Cor. 9:20 which suggests a usual literal historical living under the requirements of the Mosaic code.
Mythicism doesn't fit well with Gal. 4:4 that says Jesus was born/made/come (of/to) a woman. The phrase "in the fullness of time" in connection with birth suggests an entrance into the temporal and earthly.
It doesn't fit well with Gal. 3:13 which alludes to Deut. 21:23 [cf. Num. 25:4; Jos. 8:29; Jos 10:26-27; 2 Sa 18:10-15; 2 Sa 17:23; 2 Sam. 21:6-10]. These were historical executions by hanging of some sort.
It doesn't fit well with Rom. 15:8 which says Christ became a servant/minister to the circumcised/circumcision [i.e. the Jews]. A likely allusion to Jesus' literal earthly ministry to His fellow Jews which Paul implies is continued in his & others' ministry. Compare 2 Cor. 5:16 which might be an allusion to Jesus earthly life and how prior to believing in Him Christians saw Him in a ordinary insignificant light.
It doesn't fit well with Phil. 2:6-11 which contrasts Jesus preexistent state as being in the "form of God" with His incarnation "taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man" [NASB]. Similar to how Rom. 9:5 contrasts Jesus humans and divine nature.
It doesn't fit well with Paul's rhetorical question in 1 Cor. 1:13 whether he was crucified for them instead of Christ. Implying Christ's crucifixion was earthly not celestial. In 1 Cor. 1:23 he calls Christ's cross a stumbling block to Jews because it contradicted the popular belief of a conquering Messiah, not an apparently defeated one on a earthly Roman execution stake/cross.
It doesn't fit well with the centrality and importance of the city of Jerusalem to the early Christians and the Christian community is best consistent with a historical/physical Jesus (cf. Rom. 15:19, 25-26, 31; 1 Cor. 16:3; Gal. 1:17-18; 2:1). Especially if Jesus' physical half-brother James was the main apostle in Jerusalem as Acts claims.
It doesn't fit well with 1 Cor. 15:20 which describes Jesus' resurrection as the FIRSTfruits. Implying a similarity between believers resurrection which will be bodily with Christ's which was bodily. In. 1 Cor. 15:38 & 43, Paul likens death and resurrection to a seed that's sown that and springs up. Implying a literal physical burial and bodily resurrection.
Carrier sometimes accepts Hebrews as early in order to boast his theory. But the book actually undermines his case.
Heb. 2:9 best fits with a literal historical sufferings and death of Jesus. He's said to be made lower than the angels. An allusion to Ps. 8:4-5ff. [cf. Job. 7:17ff.; Ps. 144:3] which is about literal human beings. Just as a few verses later Heb. 2:14 refers to how Jesus partook of flesh and blood like "the children" [i.e. Christians]. Two verses later 2:16-17 it says God didn't help the angels but to the seed/descendants of Abraham [i.e. human believers]. That Jesus might be like His brothers in everything [v. 17]. Implying Jesus took on the nature of humans and not of angels.
Mythicism doesn't fit well with Jesus being likened to the work, actions and consequences of Moses, Adam & Abel's spilled blood whom Paul thought were historical figures [Heb. 3:1-6; Rom. 5; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 12:24]. In Heb. 5:7 the author talks about the "days of His flesh" [i.e. Jesus'] and how "He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death". This makes most sense if this was a literal earthly life. Compare Paul's teaching about Jesus being made in the likeness of sinful flesh [Rom. 8:3]. In Heb. 7:14 the author talks about how Jesus was descended from the tribe of Judah. Only ad hoc arguments can explain away the clear meaning of that statement. Hebrews 9:27-28 makes reference to human mortality and corresponds that with Jesus' sacrificial death. Implying an earthly historical death. Hebrews 10:5 quotes the LXX and applies it to Jesus saying a body was prepared for Jesus. Implying a historical incarnation. Like in Paul, Heb. 12:3-4 [cf. 13:12-13] likens Jesus' persecution with Christians' earthly persecution.
It doesn't fit well with Heb. 2:3-4 with refers to the Gospel being declared at first by the Lord, and then by them. Implying their earthly proclamation of the Gospel was a continuation of Jesus' earthy proclamation.
Monday, March 31, 2014
Christian Responses to Christ Myth Theories
VIDEOS – AUDIOS – ARTICLES
Jesus vs. Mithra
Jesus vs. Horus
Jesus vs. Dionysus
Jesus vs. Serapis
Jesus vs. Krishna
Jesus vs. Attis
(https://youtu.be/S7-9aVdOKy0)
Jesus vs. Romulus
https://youtu.be/u3T6KxiqyVA
Jesus vs. Buddha
https://youtu.be/_rulpyz1VOQ
https://youtu.be/u3T6KxiqyVA
https://youtu.be/_rulpyz1VOQ
Jesus vs. Inanna
https://youtu.be/fb4KIFtdRPI
https://youtu.be/fb4KIFtdRPI
Horus Ruins Christmas
Did Jesus Really Exist? (or HERE)
by J. P. Holding
by J. P. Holding
Was the Resurrection Story of Jesus borrowed from Pagan Mythology?
from CARM
from CARM
Was Jesus a Myth? Part 1 of the Debate between
James White and Dan Barker
https://youtu.be/00WOGeGcjYo
What About Pre-Christ Resurrection Myths?
by William Lane Craig
https://youtu.be/qrCYVk6xrXg
Was the story of Jesus rising from the dead borrowed from pagan myths?
https://youtu.be/pI4m4tj_A3E
by William Lane Craig
https://youtu.be/qrCYVk6xrXg
https://youtu.be/pI4m4tj_A3E
https://youtu.be/3F1OOXD0ZHM
IS THE STORY OF JESUS COPIED FROM PAGAN MYTH OF HORUS
https://www.facebook.com/AnsweringChristHaters/videos/1275773109211428/
Zeitgeist Refuted Final Cut (Full Movie)
http://youtu.be/N4jdfwn5gao
( I don't know how accurate or scholarly the above response to the Zeitgeist movie is)
Jesus and Pagan Mythology Q & A with William Lane Craig (question #90)
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-and-pagan-mythology
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-and-pagan-mythology
Did Christianity Steal from Mystery Religions?
by Lenny Esposito (MP3 Audio )
Jesus Never Existed? Resources for Study
http://www.apologetics315.com/2008/12/jesus-never-existed-resources-for-study.html
http://www.apologetics315.com/2008/12/jesus-never-existed-resources-for-study.html
Essay: Christianity and Other Ancient Religions by Stephen J. Bedard
http://www.apologetics315.com/2010/04/essay-christianity-and-other-ancient.html
http://www.apologetics315.com/2010/04/essay-christianity-and-other-ancient.html
Were Bible stories and characters stolen from pagan myths?
by J.P. Holding
by J.P. Holding
The Price of Playing with a Bulldog: The Case Againt the Case Against the Case for Christ
by J.P. Holding
by J.P. Holding
Mithra vs. Jesus
by J.P. Holding
by J.P. Holding
Randel Helms' "Gospel Fictions": A Critique
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/helmsr01.php
Good question......was Jesus Christ just a CopyCat Savior Myth?
Part A and Part B
by Glenn Miller (website)
Is Jesus a Rank-Raglan Myth-Hero? (Or is Carrier a Scholar-Legend?)
http://christthetao.blogspot.com/2014/07/is-jesus-rank-raglan-myth-hero-or-is.html
Krishna & Christ
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2012/03/krishna-christ-part-10.html
Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
Undermining Richard Carrier's version of the Christ Myth Hypothesis
http://misclane.blogspot.com/2015/01/undermining-richard-carriers-version-of.html
When an Argument from Silence Becomes Utterly Meaningless
biblestudytools.com/blogs/craig-blomberg/when-an-argument-from-silence-becomes-utterly-meaningless.html
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4664/comment-page-1#comment-54444I [Richard Carrier] still find many of his [Robert Price's] claims under-documented and his arguments often weaker than they need to be, his methods are often a cipher, and he is bad at clarifying (e.g. he will defend many different mutually-contradictory theories without explaining what we are supposed to conclude from the fact that he does that, such as whether he thinks they are all equally likely or whether he thinks some are more likely than others but that all are more likely than historicity, or if he even thinks they are more likely than historicity rather than only just as likely or unlikely but likely enough to be uncertain of historicity, etc.; and that’s not the only confusion Price will lead you into, it’s just the one that I often notice the most). He also never thoroughly defends a single coherent theory of Christian origins, making him a moving target for critics (contrast with Doherty, who does a generally good job at this, and is the best mythicist to read, although he still stubbornly falls short of dissertation quality argumentation and just complains when I say that rather than trying to work out how to formulate and document arguments in a way that would pass a fair peer review–such as learning to stop crowding strong arguments with weak arguments, and instead drop the weak arguments and just shore up the strong arguments).
http://ehrmanblog.org/video-jesus-exist/I [Bart Ehrman] should say that one of the things that struck me, quite forcefully, in the aftermath of the publication of the book, was just how virulent, mean-spirited, and militant some atheists can be. The hate-mail and hate-response that I received for this book from the far left was absolutely as vehement as the hate-mail and hate-response that I have received for other books from the far right. It’s not easy being a historian, wanting simply to know what happened in the past, when so many have so many vested interests in having things their own way. Many of the mythicists are simply fundamentalists of a different stripe. Or so I’ve experienced!
Regarding Christ Mythicists, ATHEIST researcher Tim O'Neill said, "When you're talking about [Mythicists] people like [Earl] Doherty, [Richard] Carrier and I would argue [Robert M.] Price. And then some of the lesser lights. People like [Dave] Fitzgerald, and [Raphael] Lataster and so on... Many of these people...I get the impression, many of these people get a lot of psychological energy from being right and everyone else being wrong. Being contrarians. Richard Carrier does strike me as someone who has a lot invested in, "I'm smarter than everyone else. Everyone else is wrong about Mythicism. I'm right." And he's got about five or six other historical topics on which he is the only person in the world who seems to have gotten it right according to Richard Carrier. So it's interesting that that is a pattern there. Robert Price will endore pretty much any thesis that is contrary to the mainstream...........So there is an element of contrarianism to a lot of [Christ] Mythicism. "
See Atheist Tim O'Neill's website History for Atheists for more on how he debunks atheist myths regarding Jesus and Christianity.
See also the resources at the following links:
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