"...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints."- Jude 1:3
Showing posts with label Richard Carrier. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Richard Carrier. Show all posts

Thursday, January 14, 2021

My Book Review of "Why I Am Not A Christian" by Richard Carrier

 The following is the review I wanted to post on goodreads.com, but the character limits forced me to dramatically cut it down there. Even before cutting it down, I didn't intend to write an exhaustive review because it was meant for goodreads.com. I could write an exhaustive review of the book here on my blog, but I'm too lazy to rewrite a thorough refutation.

At the beginning of the book Carrier wrote:

//If this is what Christianity is (and most Christians appear to believe so), then there are four reasons why I do not believe a word of it. And all four would have to be answered with a clear preponderance of evidence before I would ever change my mind. I’m serious about this, too. If all four points are ever refuted with solid, objective evidence, then any other quibbles I have beyond these four would not stop me from declaring faith in Christ. For surely any other problem I or anyone might find with the Christian worldview could easily be solved from within the faith itself—if it weren’t for the following four facts.//


I wonder if Carrier really means that, and why it is that [apparently] no Christian apologist has shown him how ridiculously easy it is to refute most of his objections to Christianity that he lists in THIS book. Admittedly, his other books would be MUCH more difficult to refute. Especially those on the historicity of Christ and his argument for Mythcism. However, this book presents general arguments against  Christianity which are often based on unwarranted and inflexible theological assumptions. For that reason the book is a very poor case against Christianity, as I'll explain below.

It's shocking that this book was written in 2011. In one sense, Christian apologetics has advanced to such an extent since then that this book is obsolete just 9 years later when I read the book today. Maybe it was out-of-date even earlier. In any case, it would be unfair for us to expect it to address those advances that happened subsequent to 2011. Yet, in another sense, there was enough in the scholarly literature at the time of publication that Carrier should have made room for acknowledging deeper Christian responses. But he really makes no room for them to the detriment of his fulfilling the stated purpose of the book.

I and many other Christians have responses and refutations to virtually every sentence in this book. But if I were to type up all of them, this review would be way too long to post on GoodReads. So, I'll highlight just some of the problems. Admittedly this book explicitly states it's a quick and surface level critique of Christianity, So, I didn't expect it to be exhaustive. It would be natural for there to be some gaps in his argumentation which could be filled in using his other books or recommended resources. However, he's so dogmatic in his conclusions that that by itself makes it a terribly argued book. Carrier makes high promises, but fails to even coming close to delivering on them. He should have given his many conclusions in the book with greater epistemic modesty, and humbly stated them in probabilistic phraseology. Instead,  he leaves no logical space for his arguments to be responded to with more nuanced Christian responses. As if nothing else could be said by Christians to show where his reasoning has gaps, leaps and non-sequiturs. At most [if I were being charitable], many of Carrier's arguments could possibly justify agnosticism toward Christianity. But that's still compatible with Christianity's truth. Yet, his book is explicitly subtitled "Four Conclusive Reasons to Reject the Faith". Meaning the Christian religion. Notice the word "CONCLUSIVE". The only out he could possibly have to this criticism of [virtually] claiming deductive proof that Christianity is false is by him pointing out that he actually did write, "When we stick with what Christianity usually means, there is simply not enough evidence to support believing it." The problem is that what he thinks as "what Christianity usually means" is too narrow a definition. Plus, he doesn't make that caveat often enough throughout the book to warrant that as an acceptable excuse for why he was as adamant as he was that he disproved Christianity.

Notice some of the dogmatic conclusions he makes in the book. When in actual fact many of them in context are non-sequiturs:

//Therefore, Christianity is false.//
//So either way, Christianity is false.//
//Which the Christian God would never in good conscience allow. So again, there can be no Christian God.//
//Christianity is simply refuted by the plain facts.//
//And since this is not what we observe, but in fact the exact opposite, the evidence quite soundly refutes Christianity.//
//Therefore, the fact that God hasn’t spoken to us directly, and hasn’t given us all the same, clear message, and the same, clear answers, is enough to prove Christianity false.//
//Therefore, no God exists who is even remotely like my father or my friends, or anyone at all who loves me. Therefore, Christianity is false.//
//That this is not the reality, yet it would be the reality if Christianity were true, is conclusive proof that Christianity is false.//
//Therefore, the fact that the Christian God does none of these things—in fact, nothing of any sort whatsoever—is proof positive that there is no Christian God.//
//For now, it’s enough to note that we do not observe God doing good deeds, therefore there is no God who can or wants to do good deeds—which means Christianity is false.//
//Therefore, once again, the Christian God does not exist.//
//The logic of this is again unassailable.//
//So the Christian theory is either empirically false, or self-contradictory and therefore logically false.//
//Once again, either way, Christianity is false.//
//The fact that he doesn’t proves he doesn’t exist.//
//That leaves no way to escape the conclusion: God’s inaction alone refutes Christianity.//
//Therefore, the absence of this evidence not only leaves Christianity without sufficient evidence to warrant our believing it, but it outright refutes Christianity, because Christianity entails the prediction that God would provide enough evidence to save us, to let us make an informed decision.//
//So there is no way to escape this conclusion. Christianity is fully refuted by its own dismal state of evidence.//
//Christianity is therefore refuted.//
//So the nature of the universe is another failed prediction, confirming our previous conclusion that Christianity is false. And like the three others, there isn’t any way to escape this conclusion.//



Most of his objections to Christianity are based on assumptions about what the Christian God is like and what He would CERTAINLY do [in his fallible opinion]. Yet, many  of those assumptions are either not found in Christianity and/or the Bible, or if subscribed by some Christians, aren't subscribed by all. Even some major ones which he even mentions in the book. For example, by Calvinists like myself [whom he mentions twice]. According to Calvinism and its view of predestination, many of his assumptions are false [e.g. regarding God's supposed universal unconditional equally extended love, etc]. Yet, he uses those assumptions to critique Christianity. He often argues in this fashion: If God exists, X would be done. X is not being done. Therefore God doesn't exist. But that boils down to whether HIS narrow and specific conception of the Christian God existed....yada yada yada. Put another way, if I [Richard Carrier] were God, I would do X. X isn't being done. Therefore God doesn't exist. But all that proves is that he's not God. He makes much of God's alleged love, but he fails to balance that with the Bible's doctrine of God's sovereignty and of His being the righteous Governor and Judge of the world. This book exposes how theology is not Carrier's forte.

Not only does he set the bar too high for proving Christianity, Carrier's objections don't take into account other views which I myself don't necessarily hold, but which other professing Christians do. Views which have ramifications/reprecussions/consequences/entailments which undermine his case. For example, he doesn't factor into his critiques views like: inclusivism; universalism/apocatastasis; purgatory [even some Protestants like Jerry Walls are open to a version]; Soul & Character Building/Developing theodicies; Recompense theodicies whereby God ordains there be some epistemic & redemptive distance between humans and Himself in this present Age to allow for rewards and punishments in the afterlife; the concept of a God given conscience and innate knowledge; the sensus divinitatis; the doctrine of humanity's original Fall; the noetic effects of sin; the defense of Skeptical Theism which is [as SEP states] a "strategy for bringing human cognitive limitations to bear in reply to arguments from evil against the existence of God"; Molinistic middle knowledge; Reformed Epistemology; God's Greater Glory theodicy, et cetera. [Some of the things just listed I reject,while others I'm open to or positively hold]

He switches from internal critiques of Christianity to external critiques back and forth erratically. Something which muddles and weakens his argumentation. When doing an internal critique of a worldview, you're supposed to assume for the sake of argument everything that worldview includes in its system. Yet, he repeatedly only assumes only parts of the Christian position and then attacks that strawman representation.

He argues how his conception of a loving God would give everyone the same message and there wouldn't be disagreements in interpretation. That doesn't take into account how grace as unobligated toward ill-deserving sinners; the noetic effects of sin; cognitive biases; how traditions/presuppositions can interfere with interpretations; differences in intellectual aptitude; or even opportunity to investigate these issues, messages or claimed revelations [in terms of time and resources]; or even of intentional fraudulent claims of revelation [et cetera]. He writes:

//If everyone all over the world and throughout history, myself included, had the same religious experience, witnessing no other supernatural being—no other god, no other spirit—other than Jesus, and hearing no other message than the Gospel, I would believe.//


Such unianimity of religious experiences and/or testimony would be difficult to achieve if Christianity's claim that there exists deceiving evil spirits were true. Or, as I said above, if there were (outright) lying human con artists who have fabricated false religions based on false claims of received revelations. This is one of many examples where Carrier set's the bar too high in order to prove Christianity. Could God overcome such issues? Yes. But there are reasons why the Christian God possibily wouldn't always do so, and Carrier doesn't address those possibilities. Earlier I gave as examples the ramifications of Calvinism or Molinism [to mentioned just two of many others]. If I recall correctly, even in his debate with William Lane Craig, Craig presented Molinist options like God knowing via middle knowledge what would and wouldn't convince a person of the truth of Christianity and then God providentially placing people the appropriate places that would result in His plan being inexorably fulfilled. If Carrier didn't anticipate and respond inadvance to the milder view of predestination that Craig offered in this book, then all the more has he failed to respond to Calvinism. Yet Carrier confidently pounds his fists repeatedly saying his objections devastatingly destroy the possible truth of Christianity.

William Lane Craig has said in response to the question of why God didn't make His existence rationally coercive: "Indeed, I could well imagine that in such a world, after a while, people would begin to chafe under such brazen advertisements of their Creator. And in time, eventually come to resent His effrontery for such brazen advertisements of His existence." Elsewhere Craig invited people to imagine a situation in which God consistently interrupted us whenever we were about to do something that would be displeasing to Him.

Or take for example 17th century Augustinian Catholic apologist Blaise Pascal's statements in his Pensées:

////Willing to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from him with all their heart, God so regulates the knowledge of himself that he has given indications [or "signs"] of himself which are visible to those who seek him and not to those who do not seek him. There is enough light for those to see who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition.

Elsewhere in his Pensées he wrote:

The prophecies, the very miracles and proofs of our religion, are not of such a nature that they can be said to be absolutely convincing. But they are also of such a kind that it cannot be said that it is unreasonable to believe them. Thus there is both evidence and obscurity to enlighten some and confuse others. But the evidence is such that it surpasses, or at least equals, the evidence to the contrary; so that it is not reason which can determine men not to follow it, and thus it can only be lust or malice of heart. And by this means there is sufficient evidence to condemn, and insufficient to convince; so that it appears in those who follow it, that it is grace, and not reason, which makes them follow it; and in those who shun it, that it is lust, not reason, which makes them shun it. ////

I myself believe God provides different levels of evidence at different times and places for His sovereign purposes. Sometimes they are undeniable and rationally coercive, other times they are balanced so as to afford an opportunity for us to express our bent and preference.

Elsewhere Pascal makes high predestinarian statements that some Calvinists might agree with:

////577 There is sufficient clearness to enlighten the elect, and sufficient obscurity to humble them. There is sufficient obscurity to blind the reprobate, and sufficient clearness to condemn them, and make them inexcusable.—Saint Augustine, Montaigne, Sébond.

574 All things work together for good to the elect, even the obscurities of Scripture; for they honour them because of what is divinely clear. And all things work together for evil to the rest of the world, even what is clear; for they revile such, because of the obscurities which they do not understand.

562 It will be one of the confusions of the damned to see that they are condemned by their own reason, by which they claimed to condemn the Christian religion.

576 God has made the blindness of this people subservient to the good of the elect.////////


Carrier's book doesn't come close to addressing Molinist, or Augustinian or Calvinist counter-arguments.

Carrier has gone on record saying he's no less a philosopher than Aristotle himself [wow, what a boast!]. I've watched many YouTube videos of Carrier, but not until reading this book did I realize just how woefully ignorant of Christian theology and philosophy Carrier seems to be. Whether it be systematic theology, philosophical theology, historical theology, pastoral theology, biblical theology etc. It just goes to show that knowing the Bible well, as Carrier does, is not the same thing as understanding the Bible or its implications.

//The logic of this is again unassailable. So Christians feel compelled to contrive more ad hoc excuses to explain away the evidence—more speculations about free will, or “mysterious plans,” or a desire to test us or increase opportunities for us to do good, and a whole line of stuff like that. And yet Christians again have no evidence any of these excuses are actually true. They simply “make them up” in order to explain away the failure of their theory.//

//In fact, all the ad hoc excuses for God’s total and utter inaction amount to the same thing: claiming that different rules apply to God than to us. But this is not allowed by the terms of the theory, which hold that God is good—which must necessarily mean that God is “good” in the same sense that God expects us to be good. Otherwise, calling God “good” means something different than calling anyone else “good,” and therefore calling God “good” is essentially meaningless.//


Carrier doesn't blink an eye when making such blanket statements. He's apparently ignorant of the following and their implications to his basic objections: classical theism or neo-classical theism [with respect to the omni-attributes and divine simplicity, immutability, impassibility, timelessness], Thomism, analogical language in theology, perfect being theology etc. While I accept Divine Simplicity, I myself reject Thomism and ABSOLUTE Divine Simplicity. Carrier again fails to leave logical room for these topics which, if he factored in, would weaken the force of his critiques.

Believe it or not, at one point Carrier requires Christians to prove that Christians have eternal life [LOL!]. Presumably empirically. That's an unreasonablely high requirement. He sets the bar unreasonably high multiple times in the book. He doesn't seem to be self-aware enough to realize how ridiculous some of his requirements are. Are Christians expected to be able to empirically prove that upon death the immaterial soul of a Christian goes to heaven? Seriously? By definition the soul is immaterial. In which case it cannot be empirically detected. He writes:

//Right from the start, Christians can offer no evidence at all for their most important claim, that faith in Jesus Christ procures eternal life. Christians can’t point to a single proven case of this prediction coming true. They cannot show a single believer in Jesus actually enjoying eternal life, nor can they demonstrate the probability of such a fortunate outcome arising from any choice we make today. Even if they could prove God exists and created the universe, it still would not follow that belief in Jesus saves us. Even if they could prove Jesus performed miracles, claimed to speak for God, and rose from the dead, it still would not follow that belief in Jesus saves us.
Therefore, such a claim must itself be proven. Christians have yet to do that. We simply have no evidence that any believer ever has or ever will enjoy eternal life, or even that any unbeliever won’t.//


He writes:

//As many a good Christian will tell you, only God knows who will receive his grace. So the Christian cannot claim to know whether it’s true that “faith in Christ procures eternal life.” They have to admit there is no guarantee a believer will be saved, or that an unbeliever won’t be. God will do whatever he wants. And no one really knows what that is. At best, they propose that faith in Christ will “up your chances,” but they have no evidence of even that.//


This seems to contradict what he wrote earlier in the book where he seems to hinge the truth of Christianity on God having to make salvation and the knowledge of salvation equally available to all so that all can make an informed decision to submit to Him. Yet, here he seems to admit that at least some Christians believe that it might be possible to be saved irrespective of one's conscious faith in. and choice of, Christ in this life [cf. inclusivism, universalism, post-mortem evangelism, purgatory etc.]. This later admission completely undermines much of his argumentation in the earlier chapters.

//...until such time as every required element of that theory has been independently confirmed by empirical evidence.//
//This is a serious problem for the Christian religion as an actual theory capable of test and therefore of warranted belief.//


These statements verge on going past empiricism to scientism, and/or logical positivism, and/or verificationism. The latter three have hit hard times in the philosophical community. They are dead programs in the guild. He stipulates, "...until such time as EVERY required element of that theory has been independently confirmed..." Really? That's you're requirement? Setting the bar that high he might as well require Christians to also prove that King David was ruddy, Zacchaeus was short, Ehud was left-handed, and Timothy was circumcised.

//We have never observed anyone who had magical powers, or any evidence that such powers even exist in principle (what stories we do have of such people are always too dubious to trust, and always remain unconfirmed in practice). //
//No one has observed a real act of God, or any real evidence of his inhabiting or observing the universe. //
//We have no good evidence that we have death-surviving souls or that anyone can or will resurrect our bodies.......We have never observed anyone performing anything confirmed to be miraculous, much less rising from graves or any comparable ability. //
//As for those who claim to have “seen” or “spoken” to God, it turns out on close examination (when we even have the required access to find out) that they are lying, insane, or only imagining what they saw or heard.//


I'd invite people to examine the evidence for themselves and not take the word of skeptics as the final authority. For starters, read for example Craig Keener's two volume Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts; Rex Gardner's Healing Miracles: A Doctor Investigates; and the appendices in Robert Larmer's The Legitimacy of Miracle as well as his book Dialogues on Miracle.

//The most popular—and really, the only evidence people have for God’s existence and role as Creator—is the apparent “fine tuning” of the universe to produce life. That’s at least something remarkable, requiring an explanation better than mere chance. As it turns out, there are godless explanations that make more sense of the actual universe we find ourselves in than Christianity does—but we shall examine this point in the next chapter (pp. 66-80).//


I'm glad to see that Carrier does acknowledge that fine-tuning is prima facie evidence for a cosmic designer. In the end he doesn't find it convincing. But fine-tuning could be one data point of many evidences and arguments that Christian apologists can provide which could be used in a cummulative case that makes theism, even Christianity, the more (or most) plausible worldview. The converging lines of evidence for Christianity are there if one will do the research.

//Therefore, the Christian theory has insufficient support to justify believing it. And this remains so even if Christianity is true. For even if it is true, we still don’t have enough evidence to know it is true.//


But even wholly apart from rigorous apologetical evidences and arguments for God, one can be justified in believing in the existence of God. Here Carrier completely side steps the insights of Plantinga's Reformed Epistemology and its appeal to properly basic beliefs, the sensus divinitaris, the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit, &c.

With respect to the origin of life and biological evolution, while I don't positively subscribe to it, macro-evolution is compatible with Christianity. I would recommend Stephen Meyer's books, "Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design", "Darwin’s Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design". Also the upcoming book, "The Return of the God Hypothesis". Along with the other books/resources recommended by the Discovery Institute [e.g. Michael Denton's books], and Hugh Ross' apologetical ministry Reasons to Believe.

//After all, what need does an intelligent engineer have of billions of years and trillions of galaxies filled with billions of stars apiece? That tremendous waste is only needed if life had to arise by natural accident.//


There's a long history in both non-Christian & Christian theology/philosophy of the concept of the "principle of plenitude" whereby God wants to express His infinite creativity by producing the maximal [or nearly so] diversity of kinds of existences of everything that's possible. A concern for efficiency is only needed with limited time, power and resources. God is infinite on those areas. Moreover, according to the Bible the vastness and the innumerable number of stars is meant to manifest the glory, greatness, wisdom and transcendence of God.

//Because if there is no God, then life could have arisen only in a world that large and old. So that would be the only world we would ever see around us. And lo and behold, that’s exactly the world we see around us.//


That's just not true. As William Lane Craig has written, "Roger Penrose has calculated that the odds of our solar system’s forming instantaneously through the random collision of particles is incomprehensibly more probable that the universe’s being fine-tuned, as it is. So if we were a random member of a World Ensemble, we should be observing a patch of order no larger than our solar system in a sea of chaos. Worlds like that are simply incomprehensibly more plentiful in the World Ensemble than worlds like ours and so ought to be observed by us if we were but a random member of such an ensemble." Moreover, Hugh Ross has, rightly or wrongly, argued in his books that the size of our universe was needed for our benefit given God's plan and methods.

//There is no good reason God would need any of these things to create and sustain life. He could, and almost certainly would, use an infallible spiritual essence to accomplish the same ends—exactly as all Christians thought for nearly two thousand years.//


Yet even Augustine [who lived in the 4th & 5th centuries] believed God could have created the world with certain potentialities that would develop and unfold through time. So, it's not the case that biological evolution was incompatible with Christianity and was exposed to be such with the coming of Darwin in the 19th century. Think again of the plenitude principle.

//At most a very minimal brain would be needed to provide interaction between the senses, nerves, and soul.//


This doesn't take into account the many cases in the scientific literature where people who apparently had little to virtually no brain who nevertheless had average levels of intelligence, or higher than would be expected. See, InspiringPhilosophy's [i.e. Michael Jones'] videos on the soul, consciousness, and related topics.

//Even the Christian proposal that God designed the universe, indeed “finely tuned” it to be the perfect mechanism for producing life, fails to predict the universe we see. //


This statement doesn't take into account the spiritual Fall of mankind and the effects on the world. It may have even had retroactive effects [as argued by William Dembski]. Also, how did Carrier conclude that Christianity and/or the Bible teaches "it to be the perfect mechanism for producing life"? As far as I can tell, that can't be deduced or induced from Scripture.

//Instead, almost the entire universe is lethal to life—in fact, if we put all the lethal vacuum of outer space swamped with deadly radiation into an area the size of a house, you would never find the submicroscopic speck of area that sustains life.//


Imagine the following thought experiement where life was abundant in every nook and cranny of the universe. In such a situation humans could possibly think it was a such a natural and universal state of reality that we might not consider the need a c/Creator. However, by contrast a tiny amount of life in an inhospitable universe where life would be very difficult to develop or be sustained, and was probabilistically unlikely to produce life, could point to a c/Creator without necessarily coercing a rational belief in God. It's easy to take for granted things in abudance. Often it takes losing those things or their being rare that we can appreciate how special they are. The fact that SETI has failed to detect other civilizations of sentient life highlights how special and precious human life on planet earth is.

//The fact that the universe is actually very poorly designed to sustain and benefit life is already a refutation of the Christian theory, which entails the purpose of the universe is to sustain and benefit life—human life in particular.//

//This is exactly what we are facing when we look at the universe: it is not very well designed for life, though life is an inevitable byproduct of what the universe was more obviously designed for: black holes. So if the universe was intelligently designed, it clearly was not designed for us.//


Even the writers of the movie Contact [with Jodie Foster] knew that super-intelligent beings could have multivalent purposes. Yet, Carrier can't seem to think that God might have various purposes for why He created our universe the way that He did. Even human makers consider both form AND function when designing things. Even human artists don't create all their art for everyone to see. Sometimes even human artists will create pieces of art for only herself or a select few to enjoy. Or enjoyed in a given context. For example, a statue that's displayed in a washroom, or a painting in a library, or a poem to only family members. The beauty of fractals was only discovered with the invention of the computer. Who knows what other mathematical and/or other aspects of our physical universe God alone can enjoy. Or which He made for angels to enjoy. Blackholes by themselves, or in conjunction with other things may be pleasing to God. Think of the underside of a rug. It may seem chaotic, but when one looks at the other side, the chaos evidently has purpose [literally] behind it. Or think of the dots of a newspaper. Up close, the dots seem random, but when see at the right distance, they can produce meaning in words and pictures. According to the Bible the existence of human beings, and their welfare aren't the sole reasons why God created the physical universe. Without the false assumption that humans are the only reason for creation, Carrier's objections crumble.

//The natural world is like an autistic idiot savant, a marvelous machine wholly uncomprehending of itself or others.//


See Robin Collins papers and videos on fine-tuning, scientific discovery and the discovery OF DISCOVERY. Also, the book and documentary Privileged Planet  by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards which shows a serendipitous correllation between scientific discovery and human flourishing that smacks of intelligent design.

//Conversely, all the causes whose existence we have confirmed are unintelligent, immutable forces and objects. //


See the videos by InspiringPhilosophy on quantum mechanics. Experiments in QM has demonstrated conscious observation affects the physical world. That suggests that mind is as fundamental, if not more so, than matter.

//And the fact that Christianity is identical in all these respects to other religions—like Hinduism or Islam, which every Christian must agree are false faiths yet are nevertheless just as firmly believed, on essentially the same force of evidence, and defended with essentially the same excuses—should finally shake anyone out of their complacency and compel them to ask whether they, too, are as blind as all those other people with false religions. //


The case for Christianity is vastly superior to those other faiths. See Nabeel Qureshi's books and David Wood's YouTube videos  which refute Islam. See J. Isamu Yamamoto's books and Vishal Mangalwadi's books on Hinduism.

This review has gotten too lengthy, so I'll end it here. In fine, Carrier's "Four Conclusive Reasons to Reject the Faith" are NOT AT ALL CONCLUSIVE. He's overly confident that his simplistic and introductory criticisms refute Christianity. At most they might possibly justify agnosticism with respect to Christianity. But there is a range of balance with respect to the evidence "for" and "against" Christianity that's compatible with Christianity still being true. For example, 50/50 is compatible. In my fallible opinion, when one takes a more comprehensive look at the overall evidence, the case for the Christian worldview way better than 50/50, and beats all other competing alternative worldviews out of the water. Though, admittedly, I barely touched on that postive evidence. The focus of this review was to examine the case Carrier made against Christianity. Like Belshazzar in the Old Testament, it has been weighed in the balances and "found wanting".

Wednesday, September 14, 2016

Richard Carrier, Bayes Theorem and the Historicity of Jesus


The odds form of Bayes's Theorem [Updated] by Lydia McGrew
http://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/2011/01/odds-form-of-bayess-theorem.html

π -ness Envy? The Irrelevance of Bayes’s Theorem
https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/%CF%80-ness-envy-the-irrelevance-of-bayess-theorem/

Prior probabilities
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2012/04/prior-probabilities.html

The Jesus Process: Stephanie Louise Fisher
https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/the-jesus-process-stephanie-louise-fisher/

Disproving Carrier's Proving History
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2015/08/disproving-carriers-proving-history.html

 Reading Dr. Carrier’s ”Proving History”A Review From a Bayesian Perspective by Tim Hendrix
https://www.scribd.com/document/271358647/Richard-Carrier-Proving-History-Review

 Richard Carrier’s ”On the historicity of Jesus”A Review From a Bayesian Perspective by Tim Hendrix
https://www.scribd.com/doc/305750452/Richard-Carrier-s-On-the-Historicity-of-Jesus

A Book Review of Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Christina Petterson
https://relegere.org/relegere/article/view/702/791



Sunday, January 18, 2015

Undermining Richard Carrier's version of the Christ Myth Hypothesis

(last updated 2/12/16)


With minor editing, I posted the following in a YouTube video where Richard Carrier discussed reasons for why he thinks it's possible there was no historical Jesus. Additional material not included in the YouTube comments are in RED. [My comments might eventually be deleted because the YouTube channel is named  UNCG Atheists]

Minimally, Carrier's version of the Christ Myth hypothesis requires that there be no evidence for a historical/physical Jesus in the undisputed Pauline epistles. Here are some evidences/reasons from the core Pauline corpus to suggest Jesus' historicity which Carrier missed. Like Carrier, I'm excluding the contested Deutero-Pauline epistles in this survey. If I did include them in the survey, there would be EVEN MORE evidence for a historical Jesus [and the physicality of Christ's resurrection].
- Rom. 9:5 states that Jesus was physically from the Jewish (i.e. Israelite) race.
"To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."- Rom. 9:5. If this is a proper translation, then this verse is affirming Christ's dual nature and contrasting Jesus' human nature with His divine nature. See THIS LINK for the evidence of this being properly translated. Notice too that Paul refers to his fellow Jews as his kinsmen "according to the flesh" two verses earlier in verse 3. It is unlikely that Paul's use of the phrase "according to the flesh" has a different sense or meaning in verse 5 than in verse 3. Therefore, Paul is intimating that Jesus was a real historical human being.
- Rom. 1:3 Christ was made/born of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH

- 1 Thess. 2:14-15 states that the Jews/Judeans killed Jesus like they did the other prophets. Possibly Carrier missed 1 Thess. 2:14-15 because he mixes it up with 1 Tim. 6:13. First Thessalonians is one of the (if not THE) earliest uncontested Pauline book unlike 1 Timothy which is contested/disputed by liberal scholars. Some claim this is an interpolation. I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of any manuscripts that omit it or have major textual variants comparable to the interpolation in Josephus regarding Christ. Some have said, "the final sentence contains a virtually unmistakable reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred after Paul's death" and therefore must be an interpolation. But this is merely a manifestation of an anti-supernaturalistic bias. It reasons (even if only tacitly) that since the supernatural doesn't exist, the seeming prophetic statement must not be an authentic statement by Paul.


- Rom. 8:3 states that God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful FLESH and for sin, and that God condemned sin IN THE FLESH. This likely refers to Jesus physical and bodily death. Therefore implying the physicality and historicity of Jesus.

- Gal. 1:19 mentions the apostle James as "the Lord's brother" in distinction from the "other apostles." Carrier did cite 1 Cor. 9:5 which mentions the brothers of the Lord, but his response doesn't address Gal. 1:19. Hence Paul likely believed in a historical/physical Jesus. And that's excluding the siblings mentioned in the Gospels and Acts (e.g. Mark 6:3, Matthew 13:55, John 7:3, Acts 1:14).

- 1 Cor. 15:4 states Jesus was buried. The most plausible interpretation is that this refers to a literal physical burial. Hence, an indication that Jesus was a historical and physical person.

- In Galatians when Paul states his gospel was received as a revelation from Christ Paul is CONTRASTING that with how the other apostles received their gospel message (i.e. it was directly by the physical historical Jesus). Later Paul says he compared his gospel with theirs to make sure they were in harmony, and they were (Gal. 2:1-2; 2:7-10). Because of the contrast in the way the rest of the apostles received their Gospel when compared with Paul, the implication is that Jesus was a historical human being.

- Gal. 4:4 states Jesus was born/made UNDER THE LAW. Clearly intimating Jesus' physical and historical reality (cf. 1 Cor. 9:19-20 which uses the same phrase). The whole point of saying Jesus was born/made of a woman is to indicate Jesus' historicity (cf. 1 Cor. 11:12). How else is one made/born of a woman than physically and historically? Notice, how Gal. 4:4 talks about "the fullness of time" which further corroborates historicity and physicality. Being under the law (of Moses) was understood to be something literal human Jews were under.

The repeated reference to the "cross" of Christ suggests a physical cross and hence a historical/physical Jesus. 1 Cor. 1:17-18; Gal. 5:11; 6:12, 14; Phil. 2:8; 3:18.

 - When Paul rhetorically asks whether he was crucified for the Corinthians rather than Jesus (1 Cor. 1:13) he's talking about a physical crucifixion. Hence, Jesus' crucifixion was physical.

- When Paul says (1 Cor. 1:23) that a crucified Messiah is a stumbling block to the Jews its because a physically suffering, dying and apparently defeated Messiah is the exact opposite of what the Jews expected. Besides, most Jews believed in a human messiah. [I take this back. I'm not sure what percentage of Jews at that time believed in a human, or divine, or spiritual or a dual natured messiah during the 1st century. However, many did believe in a human messiah].

- 1 Cor. 15:20 states that Jesus' resurrection is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. Falling asleep refers to physical death including the death of believers (verse 18). Therefore, Jesus' resurrection was a literal physical resurrection. Which presupposes a literal physical death as well. And a physical death presupposes a bodily historical Jesus who lived as a human being.

- 1 Cor. 2:8 shouldn't automatically be dismissed as heavenly/spiritual rulers rather than human rulers. Especially in light of
1 Thess. 2:14-15. It's possible it refers to both human and angelic rulers. If it does include human rulers, then that presupposes a physical and historical Jesus.

- If the resurrection of Christians is physical, and if Christ's return sets off the resurrection, then the return of Christ is physical. If Christ's return is physical, then his leaving would have been physical as well. That's especially true since the resurrection of the saints is supposed to be similar to Christ's resurrection (cf. Rom. 8:11, 23; Phil. 3:20-21).

- When Paul states (1 Cor. 5:7) that Christ was sacrificed as our Passover, that makes most sense if Jesus was physically slain like the Passover lambs.

- The communion elements of bread and wine as symbolic of Christ's body and blood (1 Cor. 11:27; 10:16) suggests physicality/historicity.

- Phil. 2:7-8 states that Jesus was "born/made in the likeness of men" and found "in human form" and died on a cross. A physical cross makes most sense in context.

- In Phil. 3:10-11 Paul states he wants to SHARE in Christ's sufferings, becoming like Christ in His death in order that he (Paul) might attain the resurrection from the dead. This makes most sense if Paul believed in Jesus' physicality/historicity since Paul's sufferings and persecutions were physical and earthly.

- The centrality and importance of the city of Jerusalem to the early Christians and the Christian community is best consistent with a historical/physical Jesus (cf. Rom. 15:19, 25-26, 31; 1 Cor. 16:3; Gal. 1:17-18; 2:1). Especially since Jesus' physical half-brother James was the main apostle in Jerusalem.

These are just SOME of the evidences and reasons.

2nd comment

In the video Carrier includes Hebrews as an early Christian text. But not as a Pauline epistle (as most scholars, whether conservative or liberal, reject Paul's authorship). 

I commend Carrier for including Hebrews. But he misses the important phrase in Heb. 5:7 which talks about "in THE DAYS OF HIS [i.e. Jesus'] FLESH." Meaning his earthly life before the resurrection and ascension to heaven (without implying Christ no longer has a physical body). There's a contrast being made between Christ's current mediatorial activity in heaven and his previous activity IN THE FLESH on earth.

As well as Heb. 2:14 which specifically states Jesus partook/shared in "flesh and blood" like believers. The whole point of this passage is that Jesus didn't take the nature of angels but of humans (see verses 16-17 just two verses later). Notice earlier that verse 9 states Jesus was, for a while, made lower than the angels. Suggesting a historical and physical incarnation.

As well as Heb. 10:19-20 which mentions Jesus' blood and identifies the curtain of the heavenly temple as Jesus' flesh. The idea being that the sacrifice of Jesus' physical body is the gateway or curtain by which we on earth can enter the spiritual temple and God's presence.


Heb. 2:3-4 states, "...It [i.e. the gospel] was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." This verses suggests that Jesus first preached the gospel on earth physically in the same way human ministers and apostles later did.

"For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."- Heb. 7:14. This verses suggests Jesus was a literal physical descendant of the tribe of Judah.

I don't know how Carrier could miss such passages.
3rd comment

Carrier also missed 2 Cor. 5:16 which states, "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer." This verse contrasts regarding Christ according to the flesh and no longer doing so. It suggests and seems to presuppose a historical and physical Jesus.

Here's a link to an article by a Mythcist which lists 20 arguable references to the Gospel Jesus in the New Testament epistles. Some of the passages should be included in this blog. I'll add them if I find the time. Nevertheless, it's interesting how the writer has to do a lot of work to explain away the natural senses of many of the verses. Sometimes such verses are the only way the New Testament author could refer to Jesus as being a historical human being. That's why many mythicist arguments are unfalsifiable, ad hoc, and implausible.










Update: 2021-04-14
I got into a discussion on the topic. Here's a copy of my comments. I repeated some of the stuff from above below:

Mythicism is so implausible because it has to resort to using SO MANY ad hoc arguments to explain away all of the evidence for a historical Jesus found in all the epistles of Paul, the other epistles and the Gospels. 

It has to argue for Jesus being historicized in the Gospels which were written later than Paul contrary to what one would expect given the fact that Christianity began with Jews and spread to the Gentiles. Given atheistic assumptions, one would think that the opposite would happen. That the idea of Jesus started out as a mere human among Jews then when it spread to the pagan Gentiles he was divinized via apotheosis. In fact, that's kind of what we actually see in the 2nd century Gnostics where Jesus' divinity is so emphasized that his humanity is denied. That's why near the close of the 1st century the author of the Johannine epistles had to reaffirm the humanity of Jesus against the proto-Gnostics [i.e. he identifies the spirit/teaching of the anti-Christ as denying Jesus has come in the flesh]. 

Mythicism doesn't explain well why the Ebionite Jews would think Jesus was only a mere human messiah. Or why the hostile testimony of the Jewish Talmud alludes to Jesus and maligns him, yet never doubts his historical existence.

Mythicism doesn't fit well with the more [not sole] universal and foundational 2nd Temple Jewish understanding and expectation that the Messiah would be human. This is why of the 30+ proposed Messianic candidates among Jews, all of them [or virtually so] have been historical figures. See the Wiki article

Mythicism doesn't fit well with the more [not sole] universal and foundational understanding that resurrection/anastasis usually means a literally bodily resurrection of a dead corpse which presupposes an actual historical existence. 

Mythcism doesn't fit will with Paul's identification of his own persecution and that of fellow Christians [often by his fellow non-Messianic Jews] as analogous to, and continuation of the persecution of the Messiah through his followers [often by the same Jewish groups]. See Phil. 3:10-11; Rom. 8:17; 2 Cor. 4:10-12; Rom. 15:3; [cf. 2 Cor. 13:4; Heb. 12:3-4; Heb. 13:13-14; Deutero-Pauline Col. 1:24] This persecution of believers was physical, psychological and earthly. In which case, Christ's must have been to since they are likened to one another.

Mythicism doesn't fit well with the idea that Jesus the Messiah was crucified on a cross. Which under normal circumstances presupposes a Roman and earthly execution. cf. 1 Cor. 1:17-18; Gal. 5:11; 6:12, 14; Phil. 2:8; 3:18.

Mythicism doesn't fit well with the early Christian practice of communion [1 Cor. 11:23-26] where physical bread represents the physical body of Jesus, and physical wine represent the physical blood of Jesus. With Jesus as the NT counterpart to the OT Passover [1 Cor. 5:7] which was believed to be a historical event during the Exodus that used real physical animals originally, and since the tabernacle/Temple. Paul even alludes to Jesus' betrayal which lines up with the Gospels' portrayal of Judas.

Mythicism doesn't fit well with Paul's teaching that our death and resurrection is analogous to Christ's. Implying a historical Jesus. See Phil. 3:21; 2 Cor. 4:14; Rom. 8:11; Rom. 8:17; Rom. 14:7-9; 1 Th. 4:14-17; 1 Cor. 6:14; 1 Cor. 15:16-20. Often the contexts teaches or implies a bodily resurrection for believers. Which implies Jesus' death and resurrection were bodily too.

Mythicism doesn't give a clear and definite explanation of Jesus' brother[s] Gal. 1:19, 1 Cor. 9:5. It provides ad hoc and implausible explanations.

Mythicism doesn't fit well with Paul's understanding of "under the law" in Gal. 4:4 when compared with 1 Cor. 9:20 which suggests a usual literal historical living under the requirements of the Mosaic code.

Mythicism doesn't fit well with Gal. 4:4 that says Jesus was born/made/come (of/to) a woman. The phrase "in the fullness of time" in connection with birth suggests an entrance into the temporal and earthly.

It doesn't fit well with Gal. 3:13 which alludes to Deut. 21:23 [cf. Num. 25:4; Jos. 8:29; Jos 10:26-27; 2 Sa 18:10-15; 2 Sa 17:23; 2 Sam. 21:6-10]. These were historical executions by hanging of some sort.

It doesn't fit well with Rom. 15:8 which says Christ became a servant/minister to the circumcised/circumcision [i.e. the Jews]. A likely allusion to Jesus' literal earthly ministry to His fellow Jews which Paul implies is continued in his & others' ministry. Compare 2 Cor. 5:16 which might be an allusion to Jesus earthly life and how prior to believing in Him Christians saw Him in a ordinary insignificant light.

It doesn't fit well with Phil. 2:6-11 which contrasts Jesus preexistent state as being in the "form of God" with His incarnation "taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man" [NASB]. Similar to how Rom. 9:5 contrasts Jesus humans and divine nature.

It doesn't fit well with Paul's rhetorical question in 1 Cor. 1:13 whether he was crucified for them instead of Christ. Implying Christ's crucifixion was earthly not celestial. In 1 Cor. 1:23 he calls Christ's cross a stumbling block to Jews because it contradicted the popular belief of a conquering Messiah, not an apparently defeated one on a earthly Roman execution stake/cross.

It doesn't fit well with the centrality and importance of the city of Jerusalem to the early Christians and the Christian community is best consistent with a historical/physical Jesus (cf. Rom. 15:19, 25-26, 31; 1 Cor. 16:3; Gal. 1:17-18; 2:1). Especially if Jesus' physical half-brother James was the main apostle in Jerusalem as Acts claims.

It doesn't fit well with 1 Cor. 15:20 which describes Jesus' resurrection as the FIRSTfruits. Implying a similarity between believers resurrection which will be bodily with Christ's which was bodily. In. 1 Cor. 15:38 & 43, Paul likens death and resurrection to a seed that's sown that and springs up. Implying a literal physical burial and bodily resurrection.

Carrier sometimes accepts Hebrews as early in order to boast his theory. But the book actually undermines his case.
Heb. 2:9 best fits with a literal historical sufferings and death of Jesus. He's said to be made lower than the angels. An allusion to Ps. 8:4-5ff. [cf. Job. 7:17ff.; Ps. 144:3] which is about literal human beings. Just as a few verses later Heb. 2:14 refers to how Jesus partook of flesh and blood like "the children" [i.e. Christians]. Two verses later 2:16-17 it says God didn't help the angels but to the seed/descendants of Abraham [i.e. human believers]. That Jesus might be like His brothers in everything [v. 17]. Implying Jesus took on the nature of humans and not of angels.

Mythicism doesn't fit well with Jesus being likened to the work, actions and consequences of Moses, Adam & Abel's spilled blood whom Paul thought were historical figures [Heb. 3:1-6; Rom. 5; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 12:24]. In Heb. 5:7 the author talks about the "days of His flesh" [i.e. Jesus'] and how "He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death". This makes most sense if this was a literal earthly life. Compare Paul's teaching about Jesus being made in the likeness of sinful flesh [Rom. 8:3]. In Heb. 7:14 the author talks about how Jesus was descended from the tribe of Judah. Only ad hoc arguments can explain away the clear meaning of that statement. Hebrews 9:27-28 makes reference to human mortality and corresponds that with Jesus' sacrificial death. Implying an earthly historical death. Hebrews 10:5 quotes the LXX and applies it to Jesus saying a body was prepared for Jesus. Implying a historical incarnation. Like in Paul, Heb. 12:3-4 [cf. 13:12-13] likens Jesus' persecution with Christians' earthly persecution.

It doesn't fit well with Heb. 2:3-4 with refers to the Gospel being declared at first by the Lord, and then by them. Implying their earthly proclamation of the Gospel was a continuation of Jesus' earthy proclamation.